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[Music]

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and good afternoon from philadelphia

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frank here with yet another episode of

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ufo news network sunday today on a very

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nice saturday afternoon

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and we've got a very special guest

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joining us for today

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and to tell you all about it my co-host

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as

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always the one and only chat hannah chan

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how are you today

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doing well frank thank you so much this

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is going to be a really wonderful show

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we have a legend

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and icon with us from the ufo community

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kathleen martin who is a sociologist

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historian and investigator of ufos in

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contact with non-humans

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she is an author of several

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professionally published books

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a featured on-camera commentator and an

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international lecturer

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she earned a ba degree in social work

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and was employed as an educator

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and education services coordinator while

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attending graduate school

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her interest in ufos and contact began

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in 1961

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when her aunt and uncle betty and barney

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hill had a close encounter

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and subsequent deduction in new

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hampshire's

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white mountains since 1990 she has

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followed the evidence to uncover the

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truth about ufos

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their occupants the humans they interact

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with and the us government's involvement

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in the ufo problem

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she has worked on three social research

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projects

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with nearly 5 000 experiencers of et

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contact her research at physical

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archives

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and her investigation of case after case

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of contact with non-humans

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has given her a depth of knowledge that

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few

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possess i wanted to mention a little bit

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about uh betty and barney hill

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this is a a case that i think anybody

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it's sort of

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a staple of ufology it's something that

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everybody who's not even in the

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in the community the ufo community would

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have heard

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about it and that is read a little bit

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from

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wikipedia on it barney and betty hill

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were an american couple who claimed they

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were abducted by ets

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in a rural portion of the state of new

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hampshire from september of 1919

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to september 20 1961.

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it was the first widely publicized

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report of an alien abduction

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in the u.s the incident came to be

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called the hill abduction

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and the zetta reticuli incident because

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the star map

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shown to betty hill could possibly be

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the zeta reticuli system according to

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some researchers

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their story was adapted into the

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best-selling 1966

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book the interrupted journey and the

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1975 televised

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movie the ufo incident it's september of

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2016

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plans were announced to make a film

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based on the events with an unknown

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release date

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welcome kathleen to the show how are you

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doing today

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well thank you and it's a pleasure to be

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with you i'm i'm doing very well

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up here in new hampshire uh for the week

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and uh instead of at my home in florida

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so it's great to be with you yes we're

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very grateful to have you on with us

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you're a wonderful person and i would

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just like to say

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and uh i can't say this uh i can't

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emphasize this enough

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you have to be one of the kindest and

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most

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uh good-hearted heart of gold person

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people i have ever met in my whole life

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i can feel it from you

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you're a really beautiful individual and

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every single person i know

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has said nothing but really lovely

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things about you

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i would also like to let our audience

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know that kathleen has spent

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probably uh innumerable amount of time

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thousands of hours i'm sure for free

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she's probably out of pocket money wise

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if anything

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regarding all of her contributions to

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the ufo slash et topic and other

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phenomena

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and what she does is she spends

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voluminous amounts of time with people

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who badly need her help with regards to

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the topics i just

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mentioned now uh one person who was very

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close to her

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was stanton friedman who was a nuclear

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physicist and

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a well-known ufologist who was also a

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legend

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um regarding the ufo slash et topic and

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he resided in fredericton

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new brunswick canada we all missed him

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dearly i wanted to ask you kathleen

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when was the very first time you met

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stanton

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and in addition to that aside from

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when you first met him did you know when

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you met him you would become such close

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friends

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i met him for the first time i believe

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it was in december

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of 1971. i graduated from the university

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of new hampshire in 1971

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and it was

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a year before we went to cincinnati for

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graduate work

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so i i believe that

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i attended stanton's lecture he was

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billing himself as the flying saucer

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physicist

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i see in his records that it that he

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spoke at

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unh in 1971 so i think that that was the

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first time

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i met him but i only began

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to follow his work

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probably in the 1980s

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when i saw him on television

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he had investigated the roswell crash

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and he was speaking at

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lectures i began to attend

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conferences in the 1990s

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and so uh that's when i became a big fan

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of stanton i liked him because he was a

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nuclear physicist i knew he was being

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scientific

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uh he was an upstanding

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man he was meticulous in his research so

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and my aunt betty hill had told me that

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he was

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probably the best in the field at that

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point so

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uh i was very impressed with

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stanton and he was also very very funny

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he always

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injected humor into his lectures so

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whenever i went to ufo conferences

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i made sure that i went to stanton's

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lectures i never sat

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one out he was full of information

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stanton friedman whom we all missed uh

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we all one thing one thing my co-host

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frank stalter pointed out to me which

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i was aware of but i think frank is

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even more acutely aware of this because

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he had the privilege of interviewing

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stanton was he told me you know one

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thing about

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stanton friedman that was so great was

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he was available to anybody and

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everybody always

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he was never afraid of talking about

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anything that was ufo slash gt or other

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phenomena related

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he was a very unafraid individual with

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regards to debate he had no problem

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debating anybody on any of those

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topics if he deemed it necessary and he

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didn't

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shirk his duties as far as

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sharing any kind of knowledge that he

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might have accumulated over the years

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he always shared everything he could

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with everyone

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easiest individuals to have had the

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opportunity to interview

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because he made sure that he was

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available to everyone do you agree with

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that

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public

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and he said to me you have to realize

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that you're not

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talking to college professors or

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scientists you're talking with the

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general public

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what stanton did

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he was the public's ufologist

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and or the people's ufologist

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and just about everybody loved him the

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only people who didn't were the ones

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that he called the debunkers

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and because he took them on and

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uh he defeated them he loved

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to engage in debates

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publicly he was very good at debating he

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had been on the debating team for three

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years when he was in

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high school and so

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that was something that he had expertise

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in

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uh everybody did love him except for

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those

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uh debunkers so he called them i call

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them disinformants because

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they uh don't take the bunk out of

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anything

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they tend to add bunk in order to

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dissuade the public

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from believing the truth yeah what a

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great way of putting it

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yeah we had uh we had had uh stanton on

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at a very interesting time was uh not

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quite three years ago

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and that was uh right after uh all this

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uh new information was starting to

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to bubble out about the ufos and kind of

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a rekindling uh

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general interest in it i can remember

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when i started following uh back in the

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70s uh

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it was a there was a lot of interest and

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then it kind of waxes and wanes over the

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years but

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it was a very interesting time and i

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just wanted to get your feedback on

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what's going on right now

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new news seems to come out that we just

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have quite a bit of news coming out

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just yesterday as a matter of fact more

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interviews more

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people coming forward u.s senators

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expressing interest in the subject

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former

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director of national intelligence here

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in the states

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uh saying that we should be looking into

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this more and that

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there's something to it uh are you a

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little sorry that

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stanton's missed all this i mean it's

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providing some real validation to his

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life's work

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absolutely if only he could be here

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to to see all of this i know he would be

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delighted

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and i hope that he can somehow look down

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and tap in

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to this new information this soft

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disclosure

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this new interest there was previously

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uh many years ago interest

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in congress uh stanton uh

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spoke before congress and

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presented a report to congress so he was

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involved in this and then also

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in the united states in the united

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nations

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when uh they were speaking about this

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and and interested in this topic but

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then

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for some reason the the lid clamped down

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there was a lot of

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uh frightening information about how

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much

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money it was going to cost

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dr james e mcdonald was

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00:11:49,110 --> 00:11:46,079
the leading scientist in that time frame

290
00:11:52,550 --> 00:11:49,120
and had made a proposal and

291
00:11:54,150 --> 00:11:52,560
people like the arch skeptic

292
00:11:56,150 --> 00:11:54,160
philip class who was really a

293
00:11:59,190 --> 00:11:56,160
disinformant and dr

294
00:12:01,670 --> 00:11:59,200
donald menzel were

295
00:12:02,230 --> 00:12:01,680
very concerned about this use of public

296
00:12:05,269 --> 00:12:02,240
funding

297
00:12:08,470 --> 00:12:05,279
also dr edward condon

298
00:12:11,670 --> 00:12:08,480
who did not want

299
00:12:14,870 --> 00:12:11,680
the scientists to look into this

300
00:12:16,150 --> 00:12:14,880
and used the cost of it in order to

301
00:12:19,430 --> 00:12:16,160
dissuade

302
00:12:22,870 --> 00:12:19,440
uh the congress from passing the funding

303
00:12:26,629 --> 00:12:22,880
uh to investigate ufos but

304
00:12:30,069 --> 00:12:26,639
you know it it does not cost as much as

305
00:12:35,430 --> 00:12:30,079
philip class said it would and

306
00:12:39,829 --> 00:12:35,440
uh it is so important you know that

307
00:12:42,870 --> 00:12:39,839
the u.s military has been studying this

308
00:12:46,629 --> 00:12:42,880
back to the mid 40s and

309
00:12:50,710 --> 00:12:46,639
they did some very

310
00:12:54,790 --> 00:12:50,720
impressive studies in 1952

311
00:12:55,590 --> 00:12:54,800
under the direction of uh edward rupelt

312
00:12:58,629 --> 00:12:55,600
who was

313
00:13:02,310 --> 00:12:58,639
the director of project blue book

314
00:13:05,590 --> 00:13:02,320
at that time the first director in fact

315
00:13:08,150 --> 00:13:05,600
there was a

316
00:13:09,030 --> 00:13:08,160
very important study done a scientific

317
00:13:13,430 --> 00:13:09,040
study

318
00:13:15,350 --> 00:13:13,440
on more than 1500 ufo reports that they

319
00:13:18,470 --> 00:13:15,360
had collected to that

320
00:13:21,990 --> 00:13:18,480
date many of those were by

321
00:13:24,949 --> 00:13:22,000
military personnel and they

322
00:13:26,790 --> 00:13:24,959
did a chi-square analysis they

323
00:13:29,269 --> 00:13:26,800
categorized them into different

324
00:13:30,310 --> 00:13:29,279
categories conventional categories such

325
00:13:34,150 --> 00:13:30,320
as

326
00:13:37,590 --> 00:13:34,160
aircraft balloons birds

327
00:13:38,550 --> 00:13:37,600
psychological phenomena hoaxes that sort

328
00:13:43,829 --> 00:13:38,560
of thing

329
00:13:47,509 --> 00:13:43,839
in the end 26.94

330
00:13:50,230 --> 00:13:47,519
of those cases could not be identified

331
00:13:51,030 --> 00:13:50,240
as anything conventional they did

332
00:13:54,310 --> 00:13:51,040
another one

333
00:13:57,430 --> 00:13:54,320
in 1955 it was done

334
00:13:58,790 --> 00:13:57,440
at the prestigious battelle memorial

335
00:14:03,350 --> 00:13:58,800
institute

336
00:14:06,949 --> 00:14:03,360
funded by the air force 3201

337
00:14:10,150 --> 00:14:06,959
cases and the same kind of thing

338
00:14:12,870 --> 00:14:10,160
put it into categories

339
00:14:13,910 --> 00:14:12,880
do a chi-square analysis what they

340
00:14:17,189 --> 00:14:13,920
discovered

341
00:14:21,189 --> 00:14:17,199
in all of those cases 21

342
00:14:23,990 --> 00:14:21,199
and a half percent were true unknowns

343
00:14:25,189 --> 00:14:24,000
and in the chi-square analysis they

344
00:14:28,230 --> 00:14:25,199
discovered

345
00:14:29,269 --> 00:14:28,240
that the longer the sighting the more

346
00:14:32,710 --> 00:14:29,279
reliable

347
00:14:37,750 --> 00:14:32,720
the witness the more likely it was

348
00:14:40,470 --> 00:14:37,760
to be unidentified and a true unknown

349
00:14:40,949 --> 00:14:40,480
yeah just uh really quick in stanton's

350
00:14:43,590 --> 00:14:40,959
book

351
00:14:44,310 --> 00:14:43,600
about the majestic 12 documents he had

352
00:14:47,509 --> 00:14:44,320
mentioned

353
00:14:49,509 --> 00:14:47,519
that it was the book by edward rupelt uh

354
00:14:50,389 --> 00:14:49,519
the report on unidentified flying

355
00:14:53,750 --> 00:14:50,399
objects

356
00:14:55,350 --> 00:14:53,760
that got him into ufos in the first

357
00:14:57,350 --> 00:14:55,360
place

358
00:14:59,189 --> 00:14:57,360
yes i don't know if you're aware of that

359
00:15:00,790 --> 00:14:59,199
or not but uh i thought that was pretty

360
00:15:03,110 --> 00:15:00,800
interesting

361
00:15:05,350 --> 00:15:03,120
told me that story time and time again

362
00:15:06,710 --> 00:15:05,360
and and said it on radio shows that we

363
00:15:10,310 --> 00:15:06,720
did together

364
00:15:12,949 --> 00:15:10,320
and uh he was working as a physicist at

365
00:15:17,030 --> 00:15:12,959
that time it was 1958

366
00:15:20,150 --> 00:15:17,040
and he was placing a book order and

367
00:15:23,829 --> 00:15:20,160
he could get one more

368
00:15:26,629 --> 00:15:23,839
book and uh would get a discount

369
00:15:27,590 --> 00:15:26,639
and so i think it was it was maybe free

370
00:15:31,030 --> 00:15:27,600
shipping

371
00:15:35,350 --> 00:15:31,040
and so the book he selected was uh

372
00:15:37,110 --> 00:15:35,360
edward rupelt's book and uh

373
00:15:38,550 --> 00:15:37,120
he always said it was a good thing he

374
00:15:41,990 --> 00:15:38,560
purchased that and

375
00:15:46,790 --> 00:15:42,000
not the disinformation put out by

376
00:15:49,749 --> 00:15:46,800
uh dr donald menzel in 1953

377
00:15:51,189 --> 00:15:49,759
after the robertson panel recommended

378
00:15:54,790 --> 00:15:51,199
that scientists write

379
00:15:58,389 --> 00:15:54,800
uh books and and articles

380
00:16:00,389 --> 00:15:58,399
uh sort of debunking ufos not using any

381
00:16:03,910 --> 00:16:00,399
evidence but only using

382
00:16:07,350 --> 00:16:03,920
uh logical deduction so

383
00:16:11,189 --> 00:16:07,360
uh hugh stanton was happy that he read

384
00:16:13,509 --> 00:16:11,199
uh edward rupelt's book and not menzel's

385
00:16:15,670 --> 00:16:13,519
yeah and it's readily available if folks

386
00:16:17,670 --> 00:16:15,680
haven't taken a look at it i read it

387
00:16:18,790 --> 00:16:17,680
very early on when i got serious about

388
00:16:20,550 --> 00:16:18,800
this and

389
00:16:22,230 --> 00:16:20,560
it's a fantastic book it's pretty

390
00:16:24,629 --> 00:16:22,240
amazing a lot of what's in there

391
00:16:25,990 --> 00:16:24,639
and basically yeah yeah it covers uh

392
00:16:28,069 --> 00:16:26,000
well rupaul's time

393
00:16:30,550 --> 00:16:28,079
running blue book which is basically uh

394
00:16:31,990 --> 00:16:30,560
uh yeah though the very late 40s uh into

395
00:16:34,470 --> 00:16:32,000
the early 50s

396
00:16:35,990 --> 00:16:34,480
and uh yeah it's free you can find it

397
00:16:39,670 --> 00:16:36,000
online it's available over

398
00:16:41,509 --> 00:16:39,680
at thenycap.org website and uh yeah i'd

399
00:16:43,509 --> 00:16:41,519
suggest you go check it out

400
00:16:45,030 --> 00:16:43,519
it's a very interesting and a very

401
00:16:48,069 --> 00:16:45,040
interesting counterpoint on

402
00:16:51,110 --> 00:16:48,079
what's going on today but

403
00:16:53,509 --> 00:16:51,120
uh yeah let's let's move on to uh

404
00:16:54,230 --> 00:16:53,519
you you were talking about how uh

405
00:16:56,949 --> 00:16:54,240
obviously

406
00:16:58,069 --> 00:16:56,959
uh betty and barney hill uh you have the

407
00:17:01,189 --> 00:16:58,079
relation there

408
00:17:03,670 --> 00:17:01,199
and uh uh you were aware of uh their

409
00:17:05,189 --> 00:17:03,680
their incident uh their abduction

410
00:17:07,909 --> 00:17:05,199
experience uh

411
00:17:09,669 --> 00:17:07,919
fairly early on you're still in the in

412
00:17:10,150 --> 00:17:09,679
school at this point is that about right

413
00:17:13,110 --> 00:17:10,160
if uh

414
00:17:15,189 --> 00:17:13,120
if i'm understanding the timeline here i

415
00:17:19,270 --> 00:17:15,199
was 13 years old

416
00:17:21,669 --> 00:17:19,280
it was september 20 20 1961

417
00:17:22,710 --> 00:17:21,679
betty and barney had arrived home that

418
00:17:25,829 --> 00:17:22,720
morning

419
00:17:29,350 --> 00:17:25,839
they had drawn sketches of the craft

420
00:17:32,470 --> 00:17:29,360
that they observed found

421
00:17:33,909 --> 00:17:32,480
evidence that something had happened and

422
00:17:36,950 --> 00:17:33,919
then went to bed

423
00:17:39,270 --> 00:17:36,960
and uh they woke up in later in the

424
00:17:41,990 --> 00:17:39,280
afternoon because i had just returned

425
00:17:42,870 --> 00:17:42,000
home from school when my mother was on

426
00:17:46,870 --> 00:17:42,880
the phone

427
00:17:49,990 --> 00:17:46,880
with betty and betty was telling her

428
00:17:51,350 --> 00:17:50,000
that the craft had come so close that

429
00:17:53,510 --> 00:17:51,360
she and barney

430
00:17:55,430 --> 00:17:53,520
uh were worried that they might have

431
00:17:57,190 --> 00:17:55,440
been contaminated

432
00:17:58,470 --> 00:17:57,200
and so we had a neighbor who was a

433
00:18:01,510 --> 00:17:58,480
physicist

434
00:18:04,070 --> 00:18:01,520
and she asked my mother to call the

435
00:18:07,430 --> 00:18:04,080
neighbor to see what he would suggest

436
00:18:09,909 --> 00:18:07,440
they had already taken long showers

437
00:18:13,510 --> 00:18:09,919
and but they wanted to know if there was

438
00:18:16,630 --> 00:18:13,520
anything else that they should look for

439
00:18:18,549 --> 00:18:16,640
strangely enough that physicist

440
00:18:19,990 --> 00:18:18,559
instead of talking about a geiger

441
00:18:23,029 --> 00:18:20,000
counter

442
00:18:24,070 --> 00:18:23,039
said go out to the car and see how the

443
00:18:26,870 --> 00:18:24,080
needle reacts

444
00:18:28,710 --> 00:18:26,880
on a compass now you know that if you

445
00:18:31,110 --> 00:18:28,720
put it up by the battery

446
00:18:33,590 --> 00:18:31,120
certainly the needle is going to react

447
00:18:36,870 --> 00:18:33,600
to the magnetic field

448
00:18:39,750 --> 00:18:36,880
but she started on the side of the car

449
00:18:40,549 --> 00:18:39,760
and she went to the back of the car and

450
00:18:43,590 --> 00:18:40,559
there

451
00:18:45,190 --> 00:18:43,600
were shiny spots on the trunk of the car

452
00:18:48,470 --> 00:18:45,200
that hadn't been there

453
00:18:51,750 --> 00:18:48,480
the previous day and when she placed

454
00:18:54,470 --> 00:18:51,760
the compass over those spots

455
00:18:56,070 --> 00:18:54,480
the needle would whirl but when she

456
00:18:59,350 --> 00:18:56,080
moved it away

457
00:19:03,510 --> 00:18:59,360
uh the needle dropped down so

458
00:19:09,430 --> 00:19:06,789
and uh is the the

459
00:19:10,630 --> 00:19:09,440
there was sort of a process uh by which

460
00:19:12,710 --> 00:19:10,640
uh they became that

461
00:19:14,789 --> 00:19:12,720
they came to understand that uh

462
00:19:15,190 --> 00:19:14,799
something very unusual happened to them

463
00:19:17,909 --> 00:19:15,200
it

464
00:19:19,350 --> 00:19:17,919
didn't all come back to them right away

465
00:19:20,070 --> 00:19:19,360
uh could you tell us a little bit about

466
00:19:23,029 --> 00:19:20,080
that because

467
00:19:24,870 --> 00:19:23,039
there was uh some uh regressive hypnosis

468
00:19:28,070 --> 00:19:24,880
involved if i recall correctly

469
00:19:29,430 --> 00:19:28,080
and so there was sort of a process

470
00:19:31,350 --> 00:19:29,440
in order for them to get the full

471
00:19:35,830 --> 00:19:31,360
understanding of what happened

472
00:19:39,190 --> 00:19:35,840
yes there absolutely was initially

473
00:19:42,710 --> 00:19:39,200
barney had full recall of observing

474
00:19:46,230 --> 00:19:42,720
the craft as did betty at close range

475
00:19:48,549 --> 00:19:46,240
betty from 200 feet above their vehicle

476
00:19:51,110 --> 00:19:48,559
bonnie got out of the car looked at it

477
00:19:54,070 --> 00:19:51,120
through binoculars stepped back

478
00:19:55,909 --> 00:19:54,080
and when he did it shifted to an

479
00:19:58,870 --> 00:19:55,919
adjacent field and descended

480
00:20:00,950 --> 00:19:58,880
even lower to about 100 feet in the air

481
00:20:02,870 --> 00:20:00,960
and 50 feet from where barney was

482
00:20:06,390 --> 00:20:02,880
standing

483
00:20:08,630 --> 00:20:06,400
so he in the original report

484
00:20:12,070 --> 00:20:08,640
to nycap the national investigations

485
00:20:15,830 --> 00:20:12,080
committee on aerial phenomena

486
00:20:19,590 --> 00:20:15,840
he and betty wrote that he had observed

487
00:20:22,710 --> 00:20:19,600
figures dressed in black shiny uniforms

488
00:20:25,990 --> 00:20:22,720
looking out at him as he was looking

489
00:20:26,789 --> 00:20:26,000
up through binoculars and that they were

490
00:20:29,830 --> 00:20:26,799
looking

491
00:20:32,870 --> 00:20:29,840
for a qualified hypnotist

492
00:20:33,430 --> 00:20:32,880
because barney had developed a mental

493
00:20:37,110 --> 00:20:33,440
block

494
00:20:37,909 --> 00:20:37,120
at that point he'd become terribly

495
00:20:40,310 --> 00:20:37,919
fearful

496
00:20:41,190 --> 00:20:40,320
pulled the binoculars from his eyes ran

497
00:20:43,270 --> 00:20:41,200
back to the car

498
00:20:44,870 --> 00:20:43,280
screaming to betty that they were going

499
00:20:47,430 --> 00:20:44,880
to be captured

500
00:20:48,710 --> 00:20:47,440
they wrote about a series of code-like

501
00:20:50,710 --> 00:20:48,720
buzzing sounds

502
00:20:53,029 --> 00:20:50,720
that were striking the trunk of their

503
00:20:55,029 --> 00:20:53,039
vehicle they also reported

504
00:20:57,990 --> 00:20:55,039
this they didn't mention the figures on

505
00:20:59,990 --> 00:20:58,000
the craft to the air force

506
00:21:01,669 --> 00:21:00,000
the day after when they called the air

507
00:21:06,630 --> 00:21:01,679
force but

508
00:21:10,310 --> 00:21:06,640
to make a project blue book report but

509
00:21:13,350 --> 00:21:10,320
that's only because barney thought that

510
00:21:15,750 --> 00:21:13,360
he would be laughed at they did give the

511
00:21:19,190 --> 00:21:15,760
information about the craft

512
00:21:21,590 --> 00:21:19,200
that when it was so low

513
00:21:22,870 --> 00:21:21,600
it was as large as a dinner plate at

514
00:21:25,029 --> 00:21:22,880
arm's length

515
00:21:26,470 --> 00:21:25,039
they talked about the buzzing sounds on

516
00:21:30,149 --> 00:21:26,480
the trunk of the car

517
00:21:35,029 --> 00:21:30,159
that sort of thing to the air force so

518
00:21:41,430 --> 00:21:38,310
barney wanted to forget about this he

519
00:21:44,390 --> 00:21:41,440
he said to betty don't tell anyone

520
00:21:46,310 --> 00:21:44,400
no good can come of this let's just

521
00:21:47,990 --> 00:21:46,320
forget about it betty

522
00:21:49,830 --> 00:21:48,000
uh even though there was physical

523
00:21:52,070 --> 00:21:49,840
evidence on his shoes they were so

524
00:21:53,190 --> 00:21:52,080
deeply scraped on the toes he had to buy

525
00:21:55,990 --> 00:21:53,200
new shoes

526
00:21:58,149 --> 00:21:56,000
but betty would not forget about it she

527
00:22:00,390 --> 00:21:58,159
went to the library

528
00:22:01,990 --> 00:22:00,400
checked out the first book on ufos that

529
00:22:05,909 --> 00:22:02,000
she had ever read

530
00:22:09,510 --> 00:22:05,919
written by donald kehoe from

531
00:22:12,789 --> 00:22:09,520
nycap he was the director of nycap

532
00:22:16,070 --> 00:22:12,799
so that began betty's uh

533
00:22:17,510 --> 00:22:16,080
prolonged interest in this case and she

534
00:22:20,789 --> 00:22:17,520
became obsessed

535
00:22:23,029 --> 00:22:20,799
with finding out more when they would

536
00:22:23,909 --> 00:22:23,039
come to visit my childhood home which

537
00:22:27,270 --> 00:22:23,919
they did about

538
00:22:28,390 --> 00:22:27,280
once a week sometimes more than once a

539
00:22:30,470 --> 00:22:28,400
week

540
00:22:31,669 --> 00:22:30,480
instead of joining the family the way

541
00:22:34,789 --> 00:22:31,679
barney always

542
00:22:36,470 --> 00:22:34,799
had betty would start to talk about this

543
00:22:39,669 --> 00:22:36,480
ufo sighting

544
00:22:41,909 --> 00:22:39,679
and the missing time and barney

545
00:22:43,270 --> 00:22:41,919
would walk the backlands of the family

546
00:22:45,990 --> 00:22:43,280
farm

547
00:22:46,789 --> 00:22:46,000
and he didn't want to hear about it at

548
00:22:51,669 --> 00:22:46,799
all

549
00:22:54,390 --> 00:22:51,679
betty had a series of five dreams

550
00:22:55,350 --> 00:22:54,400
where i believe that she worked through

551
00:22:59,270 --> 00:22:55,360
any

552
00:23:02,549 --> 00:22:59,280
anxiety she had about what had occurred

553
00:23:03,430 --> 00:23:02,559
barney never had a dream about it barney

554
00:23:06,470 --> 00:23:03,440
developed

555
00:23:09,110 --> 00:23:06,480
bleeding ulcers he

556
00:23:09,590 --> 00:23:09,120
wasn't able to sleep he had what today

557
00:23:11,830 --> 00:23:09,600
we call

558
00:23:13,270 --> 00:23:11,840
post-traumatic stress disorder he

559
00:23:16,470 --> 00:23:13,280
developed what they called

560
00:23:18,430 --> 00:23:16,480
conversion hysteria where you develop

561
00:23:19,590 --> 00:23:18,440
physiological symptoms that are

562
00:23:22,870 --> 00:23:19,600
psychogenically

563
00:23:25,110 --> 00:23:22,880
induced and with the bleeding ulcer he

564
00:23:26,310 --> 00:23:25,120
ended up in the hospital he had high

565
00:23:29,430 --> 00:23:26,320
blood pressure

566
00:23:33,110 --> 00:23:29,440
he had to take a three-month leave of

567
00:23:36,789 --> 00:23:33,120
absence from work and this finally

568
00:23:39,990 --> 00:23:36,799
led to a referral to dr benjamin simon

569
00:23:42,950 --> 00:23:40,000
because dr simon had earned

570
00:23:44,070 --> 00:23:42,960
a reputation for himself through

571
00:23:47,269 --> 00:23:44,080
developing

572
00:23:50,630 --> 00:23:47,279
a new type of hypnosis

573
00:23:52,950 --> 00:23:50,640
that would get to the problem he

574
00:23:53,909 --> 00:23:52,960
during world war ii had set up the

575
00:23:56,630 --> 00:23:53,919
psychiatric

576
00:23:57,750 --> 00:23:56,640
unit at the mason general hospital on

577
00:24:01,590 --> 00:23:57,760
long island

578
00:24:04,710 --> 00:24:01,600
new york he was a colonel in the army

579
00:24:07,909 --> 00:24:04,720
and and uh a neuro

580
00:24:08,870 --> 00:24:07,919
psychiatrist he had a tremendous amount

581
00:24:11,510 --> 00:24:08,880
of success

582
00:24:13,029 --> 00:24:11,520
in working with these veterans who were

583
00:24:16,830 --> 00:24:13,039
returning

584
00:24:21,430 --> 00:24:16,840
from the war who had injuries and

585
00:24:24,549 --> 00:24:21,440
uh maybe one let me use an example

586
00:24:27,750 --> 00:24:24,559
a man was blinded

587
00:24:30,789 --> 00:24:27,760
but there was no physical condition

588
00:24:32,070 --> 00:24:30,799
his eyes were not damaged and the other

589
00:24:35,430 --> 00:24:32,080
psychiatrist did not

590
00:24:36,310 --> 00:24:35,440
have luck with him in overcoming this

591
00:24:39,430 --> 00:24:36,320
problem

592
00:24:43,909 --> 00:24:39,440
because they only went as far as him

593
00:24:47,110 --> 00:24:43,919
seeing his friend killed in front of him

594
00:24:50,149 --> 00:24:47,120
but dr simon had this technique of

595
00:24:51,510 --> 00:24:50,159
probing deeply and he went back into the

596
00:24:54,710 --> 00:24:51,520
man's history

597
00:24:57,510 --> 00:24:54,720
a couple of weeks before this happened

598
00:24:58,710 --> 00:24:57,520
he had received a dear john letter from

599
00:25:01,750 --> 00:24:58,720
his sweetheart

600
00:25:04,870 --> 00:25:01,760
calling off the relationship and it was

601
00:25:06,710 --> 00:25:04,880
the combination of these things that

602
00:25:09,269 --> 00:25:06,720
caused the blindness

603
00:25:10,230 --> 00:25:09,279
dr simon worked through all of that with

604
00:25:13,990 --> 00:25:10,240
him in deep

605
00:25:17,350 --> 00:25:14,000
trance hypnosis and then commanded

606
00:25:20,630 --> 00:25:17,360
him to see again and he regained his

607
00:25:23,430 --> 00:25:20,640
eyesight that in fact dr

608
00:25:24,310 --> 00:25:23,440
simon had a movie made about his work it

609
00:25:27,750 --> 00:25:24,320
was called

610
00:25:28,789 --> 00:25:27,760
let there be light a john houston movie

611
00:25:32,870 --> 00:25:28,799
and

612
00:25:33,750 --> 00:25:32,880
he also taught at harvard he taught at

613
00:25:36,950 --> 00:25:33,760
yale

614
00:25:39,990 --> 00:25:36,960
he owned his own private psychiatric

615
00:25:42,070 --> 00:25:40,000
hospital at one point but when betty and

616
00:25:43,750 --> 00:25:42,080
barney saw him

617
00:25:46,390 --> 00:25:43,760
and barney was the person who was

618
00:25:49,590 --> 00:25:46,400
actually referred to him for treatment

619
00:25:53,029 --> 00:25:49,600
he was aging and

620
00:25:56,549 --> 00:25:53,039
it was not long not too long before

621
00:25:59,029 --> 00:25:56,559
he was ready to retire so he had had a

622
00:26:02,549 --> 00:25:59,039
very long and successful

623
00:26:04,149 --> 00:26:02,559
history of treating people who had

624
00:26:07,430 --> 00:26:04,159
conversion hysteria

625
00:26:10,390 --> 00:26:07,440
such as barney now during this time

626
00:26:11,750 --> 00:26:10,400
frame his uh this news gotten out i mean

627
00:26:14,870 --> 00:26:11,760
is this public or

628
00:26:17,430 --> 00:26:14,880
uh the uh uh uh the uh the hills

629
00:26:19,029 --> 00:26:17,440
getting any kind of uh feedback or

630
00:26:19,669 --> 00:26:19,039
harassment or anything like that or is

631
00:26:21,190 --> 00:26:19,679
this

632
00:26:22,789 --> 00:26:21,200
still pretty much within the family

633
00:26:25,510 --> 00:26:22,799
within the uh you know

634
00:26:27,269 --> 00:26:25,520
the report to the air force and the

635
00:26:29,909 --> 00:26:27,279
medical professionals

636
00:26:32,230 --> 00:26:29,919
betty and barney were willing to talk to

637
00:26:36,950 --> 00:26:32,240
military officers

638
00:26:39,029 --> 00:26:36,960
to ufo investigators to scientists

639
00:26:40,230 --> 00:26:39,039
they told the family but we were sworn

640
00:26:42,230 --> 00:26:40,240
to secrecy

641
00:26:44,149 --> 00:26:42,240
they told close friends and they were

642
00:26:46,950 --> 00:26:44,159
sworn to secrecy

643
00:26:47,669 --> 00:26:46,960
they never wanted this information to be

644
00:26:50,310 --> 00:26:47,679
released

645
00:26:52,630 --> 00:26:50,320
to the public uh betty was a social

646
00:26:56,470 --> 00:26:52,640
worker for the state of new hampshire

647
00:26:58,710 --> 00:26:56,480
barney worked for the u.s post office

648
00:27:00,549 --> 00:26:58,720
but they were both very heavily involved

649
00:27:01,350 --> 00:27:00,559
in politics in the state of new

650
00:27:04,390 --> 00:27:01,360
hampshire

651
00:27:06,630 --> 00:27:04,400
and in the civil rights movement in fact

652
00:27:09,669 --> 00:27:06,640
the information wasn't released to the

653
00:27:12,310 --> 00:27:09,679
public until the fall of 1965

654
00:27:14,549 --> 00:27:12,320
and that was the result of a violation

655
00:27:18,070 --> 00:27:14,559
of confidentiality

656
00:27:19,269 --> 00:27:18,080
that year barney uh and betty had been

657
00:27:22,310 --> 00:27:19,279
invited guests

658
00:27:25,590 --> 00:27:22,320
to lyndon johnson's inauguration

659
00:27:28,310 --> 00:27:25,600
i was as well and went with them

660
00:27:30,070 --> 00:27:28,320
barney had been appointed to the u.s

661
00:27:33,830 --> 00:27:30,080
commission on civil rights

662
00:27:35,269 --> 00:27:33,840
state advisory committee for the state

663
00:27:38,630 --> 00:27:35,279
of new hampshire

664
00:27:41,110 --> 00:27:38,640
by the governor he uh had also received

665
00:27:42,070 --> 00:27:41,120
an award from sergeant shriver the head

666
00:27:44,870 --> 00:27:42,080
of the u.s

667
00:27:47,190 --> 00:27:44,880
government's poverty program because

668
00:27:48,310 --> 00:27:47,200
bonnie and betty had worked together to

669
00:27:50,389 --> 00:27:48,320
set up the

670
00:27:51,430 --> 00:27:50,399
rockingham county community action

671
00:27:54,630 --> 00:27:51,440
program

672
00:27:57,669 --> 00:27:54,640
and using using funding from the

673
00:28:01,190 --> 00:27:57,679
office of economic opportunity

674
00:28:03,590 --> 00:28:01,200
and he also received an award from

675
00:28:04,470 --> 00:28:03,600
the archdiocese for the state of new

676
00:28:07,190 --> 00:28:04,480
hampshire

677
00:28:08,789 --> 00:28:07,200
for setting up a literacy program for

678
00:28:12,070 --> 00:28:08,799
the people of new hampshire

679
00:28:14,310 --> 00:28:12,080
through the archdiocese so they were

680
00:28:17,430 --> 00:28:14,320
very politically involved they were

681
00:28:20,870 --> 00:28:17,440
good members of

682
00:28:24,149 --> 00:28:20,880
society just doing everything

683
00:28:27,750 --> 00:28:24,159
right they never wanted this kooky story

684
00:28:31,909 --> 00:28:27,760
to come out but unfortunately

685
00:28:35,190 --> 00:28:31,919
in september of 1965

686
00:28:38,310 --> 00:28:35,200
a friend of betty's um

687
00:28:40,070 --> 00:28:38,320
violated confidentiality when she talked

688
00:28:42,789 --> 00:28:40,080
with a friend of hers

689
00:28:43,430 --> 00:28:42,799
who was a newspaper reporter for the

690
00:28:46,950 --> 00:28:43,440
boston

691
00:28:50,070 --> 00:28:46,960
traveler and she gave him a great deal

692
00:28:53,750 --> 00:28:50,080
of information he contacted betty and

693
00:28:56,070 --> 00:28:53,760
barney and he named her and said that

694
00:28:56,950 --> 00:28:56,080
she had told him a great many things

695
00:28:59,430 --> 00:28:56,960
about

696
00:29:01,029 --> 00:28:59,440
what happened to them and he believed

697
00:29:04,470 --> 00:29:01,039
that it was probably the most

698
00:29:07,110 --> 00:29:04,480
important case in history he uh wanted

699
00:29:09,110 --> 00:29:07,120
to talk with them and they refused

700
00:29:12,789 --> 00:29:09,120
they would not speak about it they said

701
00:29:16,230 --> 00:29:12,799
we don't want anyone to write about it

702
00:29:18,870 --> 00:29:16,240
it we could lose our jobs and

703
00:29:19,830 --> 00:29:18,880
they thought that they were safe at that

704
00:29:23,190 --> 00:29:19,840
point

705
00:29:26,470 --> 00:29:23,200
but at the end of october for five

706
00:29:30,070 --> 00:29:26,480
consecutive days their story ran

707
00:29:32,310 --> 00:29:30,080
in the boston traveler and john latrell

708
00:29:34,389 --> 00:29:32,320
who was the reporter

709
00:29:36,549 --> 00:29:34,399
interviewed people in upstate new

710
00:29:40,549 --> 00:29:36,559
hampshire who were witnesses

711
00:29:43,110 --> 00:29:40,559
he interviewed members of the air force

712
00:29:43,990 --> 00:29:43,120
and he interviewed many other people as

713
00:29:46,470 --> 00:29:44,000
well

714
00:29:47,350 --> 00:29:46,480
who didn't realize that betty and barney

715
00:29:51,029 --> 00:29:47,360
wanted this

716
00:29:54,630 --> 00:29:53,350
and uh what happened from there i mean

717
00:29:56,950 --> 00:29:54,640
at some point in time

718
00:29:58,070 --> 00:29:56,960
uh they well at least that betty did

719
00:30:00,549 --> 00:29:58,080
obviously

720
00:30:02,470 --> 00:30:00,559
uh if not embraced at least accepted the

721
00:30:03,830 --> 00:30:02,480
fact that the story was out so

722
00:30:05,510 --> 00:30:03,840
you know we may as well be a little bit

723
00:30:09,430 --> 00:30:05,520
more open about it and

724
00:30:12,230 --> 00:30:09,440
uh how did that process work out

725
00:30:14,630 --> 00:30:12,240
well we met as a family the there were

726
00:30:15,990 --> 00:30:14,640
reporters all around the house anyway so

727
00:30:19,350 --> 00:30:16,000
betty and barney

728
00:30:22,389 --> 00:30:19,360
escaped and drove the 20 miles to

729
00:30:23,990 --> 00:30:22,399
kingston new hampshire where i grew up i

730
00:30:26,149 --> 00:30:24,000
lived across the street from my

731
00:30:29,830 --> 00:30:26,159
grandparents betty's parents

732
00:30:32,710 --> 00:30:29,840
and we all sat down my parents and other

733
00:30:33,430 --> 00:30:32,720
family members and talked about what to

734
00:30:36,470 --> 00:30:33,440
do next

735
00:30:40,310 --> 00:30:36,480
because this not only impacted betty and

736
00:30:41,590 --> 00:30:40,320
barney it had an impact on the entire

737
00:30:44,950 --> 00:30:41,600
family

738
00:30:48,389 --> 00:30:44,960
and what we decided was that since

739
00:30:50,470 --> 00:30:48,399
this story had already been released

740
00:30:52,470 --> 00:30:50,480
the public knew about it that they might

741
00:30:55,110 --> 00:30:52,480
as well talk about it

742
00:30:56,310 --> 00:30:55,120
i think that barney was more reluctant

743
00:30:59,909 --> 00:30:56,320
than betty

744
00:31:00,870 --> 00:30:59,919
uh he was so committed to his work in

745
00:31:02,789 --> 00:31:00,880
civil rights

746
00:31:04,549 --> 00:31:02,799
he didn't really want anything to

747
00:31:08,230 --> 00:31:04,559
interfere with that

748
00:31:11,509 --> 00:31:08,240
but he did agree to talk about

749
00:31:14,789 --> 00:31:11,519
his siding and he did that

750
00:31:17,269 --> 00:31:14,799
in early november of 1965

751
00:31:18,310 --> 00:31:17,279
at the unitarian church in dover new

752
00:31:21,909 --> 00:31:18,320
hampshire

753
00:31:25,110 --> 00:31:21,919
and he was introduced to this huge

754
00:31:28,470 --> 00:31:25,120
crowd the church was overflowing

755
00:31:30,549 --> 00:31:28,480
with people and he was introduced by the

756
00:31:34,149 --> 00:31:30,559
public information officer

757
00:31:37,350 --> 00:31:34,159
from pease air force base who said that

758
00:31:39,590 --> 00:31:37,360
many people had been reporting ufos

759
00:31:41,190 --> 00:31:39,600
and that betty and barney had had a

760
00:31:41,990 --> 00:31:41,200
sighting that they were going to talk

761
00:31:44,470 --> 00:31:42,000
about

762
00:31:45,990 --> 00:31:44,480
they did not discuss the abduction or

763
00:31:48,549 --> 00:31:46,000
anything that came out under

764
00:31:49,269 --> 00:31:48,559
hypnosis they didn't consciously

765
00:31:51,430 --> 00:31:49,279
remember

766
00:31:52,549 --> 00:31:51,440
the abduction they had only consciously

767
00:31:55,269 --> 00:31:52,559
recalled

768
00:31:56,789 --> 00:31:55,279
observing a fiery orb seemed to be

769
00:31:59,669 --> 00:31:56,799
sitting on the road

770
00:32:00,070 --> 00:31:59,679
um and finding themselves on a dirt road

771
00:32:03,029 --> 00:32:00,080
with

772
00:32:04,310 --> 00:32:03,039
tall trees all around and encountering a

773
00:32:07,110 --> 00:32:04,320
roadblock somewhere

774
00:32:08,149 --> 00:32:07,120
along the way they had vague memories

775
00:32:11,269 --> 00:32:08,159
about that

776
00:32:13,990 --> 00:32:11,279
so they did talk only about

777
00:32:14,870 --> 00:32:14,000
the close encounter the craft that came

778
00:32:17,750 --> 00:32:14,880
down

779
00:32:19,509 --> 00:32:17,760
i wasn't there so i don't know

780
00:32:23,029 --> 00:32:19,519
everything they said

781
00:32:26,710 --> 00:32:23,039
but they did speak about the sighting

782
00:32:29,350 --> 00:32:26,720
itself and at that point john fuller

783
00:32:30,310 --> 00:32:29,360
who was in the area to write the book

784
00:32:34,230 --> 00:32:30,320
the incident

785
00:32:37,190 --> 00:32:34,240
at exeter about another close encounter

786
00:32:38,070 --> 00:32:37,200
between police officers and a young man

787
00:32:40,950 --> 00:32:38,080
who is

788
00:32:43,190 --> 00:32:40,960
18 years old and just preparing to go

789
00:32:45,350 --> 00:32:43,200
into the service

790
00:32:47,110 --> 00:32:45,360
he was writing that book he approached

791
00:32:48,630 --> 00:32:47,120
betty and barney and said i'd like to

792
00:32:52,230 --> 00:32:48,640
write your story

793
00:32:56,310 --> 00:32:52,240
and he had a proposal for them

794
00:32:59,990 --> 00:32:56,320
they rejected the proposal initially

795
00:33:01,509 --> 00:33:00,000
and they talked they were willing to

796
00:33:04,230 --> 00:33:01,519
talk with him

797
00:33:06,630 --> 00:33:04,240
and they would only write the book if dr

798
00:33:10,389 --> 00:33:06,640
benjamin simon was involved in it

799
00:33:13,990 --> 00:33:10,399
as well and if it focused on

800
00:33:16,710 --> 00:33:14,000
the hypnosis itself so uh

801
00:33:17,269 --> 00:33:16,720
finally they all reached an agreement

802
00:33:21,909 --> 00:33:17,279
and

803
00:33:25,590 --> 00:33:21,919
john uh focused on the hypnosis

804
00:33:26,149 --> 00:33:25,600
and uh yeah just uh well uh to bring us

805
00:33:28,789 --> 00:33:26,159
uh uh

806
00:33:29,269 --> 00:33:28,799
to bring us uh up to uh you know uh as

807
00:33:31,909 --> 00:33:29,279
far as

808
00:33:34,549 --> 00:33:31,919
we can on the story uh it uh obviously

809
00:33:38,630 --> 00:33:34,559
uh betty lived a long time after uh

810
00:33:39,110 --> 00:33:38,640
um barney had uh tragically uh passed

811
00:33:41,350 --> 00:33:39,120
away

812
00:33:44,149 --> 00:33:41,360
not too long after is that correct just

813
00:33:47,590 --> 00:33:44,159
uh a decade or so after

814
00:33:51,669 --> 00:33:47,600
uh betty um excuse me barney

815
00:33:55,830 --> 00:33:51,679
passed away in february of 1969.

816
00:33:58,509 --> 00:33:55,840
okay it was released in

817
00:34:00,230 --> 00:33:58,519
the the book was released in the fall of

818
00:34:02,789 --> 00:34:00,240
1966

819
00:34:04,549 --> 00:34:02,799
and he was dead a little more than two

820
00:34:06,470 --> 00:34:04,559
years later

821
00:34:08,310 --> 00:34:06,480
and uh betty continued on she was a

822
00:34:10,629 --> 00:34:08,320
little bit more open as time went on

823
00:34:12,389 --> 00:34:10,639
as far as sharing information about the

824
00:34:15,669 --> 00:34:12,399
experience

825
00:34:16,310 --> 00:34:15,679
yes she was far more open as time went

826
00:34:18,470 --> 00:34:16,320
on

827
00:34:20,629 --> 00:34:18,480
uh when barney was still alive there was

828
00:34:23,510 --> 00:34:20,639
a team of scientists who

829
00:34:23,909 --> 00:34:23,520
had asked betty and barney to take part

830
00:34:27,190 --> 00:34:23,919
in

831
00:34:30,629 --> 00:34:27,200
uh contact experiments they

832
00:34:34,149 --> 00:34:30,639
uh these scientists gave them the text

833
00:34:36,950 --> 00:34:34,159
that they were to try to communicate

834
00:34:39,109 --> 00:34:36,960
to these et's betty was the one who

835
00:34:42,710 --> 00:34:39,119
attempted to do the communicating

836
00:34:45,829 --> 00:34:42,720
she would go out onto her porch at night

837
00:34:49,909 --> 00:34:45,839
and send these telepathic messages

838
00:34:53,270 --> 00:34:49,919
into the air hoping that they would be

839
00:34:55,669 --> 00:34:53,280
picked up and then the scientists

840
00:34:56,869 --> 00:34:55,679
would go to a certain area where they

841
00:35:00,069 --> 00:34:56,879
wanted the

842
00:35:01,349 --> 00:35:00,079
ufo to show itself and look for the

843
00:35:04,630 --> 00:35:01,359
craft

844
00:35:07,430 --> 00:35:04,640
one of those places was my grandparents

845
00:35:07,829 --> 00:35:07,440
farm now betty and barney were looking

846
00:35:10,150 --> 00:35:07,839
there

847
00:35:11,109 --> 00:35:10,160
the scientists lived in other areas of

848
00:35:13,910 --> 00:35:11,119
the country

849
00:35:15,510 --> 00:35:13,920
one in new york and one down south i

850
00:35:19,910 --> 00:35:15,520
think it was in georgia

851
00:35:23,349 --> 00:35:19,920
so um betty and barney did look

852
00:35:27,109 --> 00:35:23,359
there was a craft that did come in

853
00:35:30,550 --> 00:35:27,119
at one time and left physical trace

854
00:35:31,589 --> 00:35:30,560
marks on the ground at my grandparents

855
00:35:34,790 --> 00:35:31,599
farm

856
00:35:36,790 --> 00:35:34,800
it came in about 200 feet from my

857
00:35:40,069 --> 00:35:36,800
childhood home

858
00:35:40,470 --> 00:35:40,079
and it was observed by two individuals

859
00:35:43,990 --> 00:35:40,480
who

860
00:35:45,910 --> 00:35:44,000
other was

861
00:35:47,910 --> 00:35:45,920
a man who lived up the street who was

862
00:35:52,390 --> 00:35:47,920
returning home from work

863
00:35:55,109 --> 00:35:52,400
and it was scientifically investigated

864
00:35:57,030 --> 00:35:55,119
there were a lot of sightings in that

865
00:35:59,349 --> 00:35:57,040
part of new hampshire

866
00:36:00,870 --> 00:35:59,359
when betty was trying to call these

867
00:36:04,069 --> 00:36:00,880
crafts in

868
00:36:05,430 --> 00:36:04,079
and sometimes the scientists would see

869
00:36:09,190 --> 00:36:05,440
the craft too

870
00:36:12,710 --> 00:36:09,200
but not always so they couldn't state

871
00:36:15,109 --> 00:36:12,720
that they were convinced that

872
00:36:15,750 --> 00:36:15,119
um it was betty who was calling in the

873
00:36:18,790 --> 00:36:15,760
craft

874
00:36:22,550 --> 00:36:18,800
it might have just been uh coming in

875
00:36:25,349 --> 00:36:22,560
on its own without uh her experiment

876
00:36:25,990 --> 00:36:25,359
but that was sort of the conclusion they

877
00:36:28,710 --> 00:36:26,000
reached

878
00:36:29,349 --> 00:36:28,720
but betty continued these experiments

879
00:36:32,550 --> 00:36:29,359
and

880
00:36:35,190 --> 00:36:32,560
ended up talking about it publicly

881
00:36:38,470 --> 00:36:35,200
and that is when she was so heavily

882
00:36:44,790 --> 00:36:41,670
and also there was a uh a map

883
00:36:46,630 --> 00:36:44,800
basically that uh betty was uh uh

884
00:36:49,270 --> 00:36:46,640
able to put together uh based on uh

885
00:36:51,990 --> 00:36:49,280
something that uh she had seen uh a

886
00:36:55,430 --> 00:36:52,000
while in uh the company of uh the ets

887
00:36:57,990 --> 00:36:55,440
and that uh relates to the zeta reticuli

888
00:36:59,750 --> 00:36:58,000
system uh there was some work done by a

889
00:37:02,630 --> 00:36:59,760
lady named marjorie fish

890
00:37:04,470 --> 00:37:02,640
uh this is a facet i think this is a

891
00:37:06,870 --> 00:37:04,480
fascinating uh

892
00:37:07,990 --> 00:37:06,880
piece and uh can you talk about that a

893
00:37:10,870 --> 00:37:08,000
little bit

894
00:37:11,829 --> 00:37:10,880
i would love to because this is where

895
00:37:15,670 --> 00:37:11,839
stanton came

896
00:37:17,510 --> 00:37:15,680
in on that case uh uh let me start from

897
00:37:21,750 --> 00:37:17,520
the beginning what happened

898
00:37:22,550 --> 00:37:21,760
is that uh when dr simon was hypnotizing

899
00:37:26,390 --> 00:37:22,560
betty

900
00:37:29,109 --> 00:37:26,400
she said that there uh she

901
00:37:30,870 --> 00:37:29,119
her examination had been finished the

902
00:37:33,670 --> 00:37:30,880
examiner went in to

903
00:37:34,470 --> 00:37:33,680
examine barney uh or at least he'd left

904
00:37:37,030 --> 00:37:34,480
the room

905
00:37:37,990 --> 00:37:37,040
she didn't know where he went really and

906
00:37:40,390 --> 00:37:38,000
so she

907
00:37:41,270 --> 00:37:40,400
said to the one that she called the

908
00:37:43,510 --> 00:37:41,280
leader

909
00:37:45,270 --> 00:37:43,520
i know you're not from around here

910
00:37:48,950 --> 00:37:45,280
where's your home port

911
00:37:52,790 --> 00:37:48,960
and he produced this three-dimensional

912
00:37:55,510 --> 00:37:52,800
star map and on it were two stars in the

913
00:37:58,550 --> 00:37:55,520
foreground that were about the size of

914
00:38:01,829 --> 00:37:58,560
nickels or or quarters they were

915
00:38:04,230 --> 00:38:01,839
connected by five solid lines and then

916
00:38:07,910 --> 00:38:04,240
there were other stars that were just

917
00:38:11,349 --> 00:38:07,920
some tiny circles that were connected by

918
00:38:12,950 --> 00:38:11,359
two or three solid lines and then on the

919
00:38:13,829 --> 00:38:12,960
map there were some stars that were

920
00:38:16,630 --> 00:38:13,839
connected by

921
00:38:18,870 --> 00:38:16,640
dotted lines others that were not

922
00:38:22,630 --> 00:38:18,880
connected by lines at all

923
00:38:26,630 --> 00:38:22,640
and so betty said to

924
00:38:30,870 --> 00:38:26,640
him well where where are you on this map

925
00:38:33,829 --> 00:38:30,880
and she was made to understand that

926
00:38:34,790 --> 00:38:33,839
the uh solid lines represented trade

927
00:38:38,349 --> 00:38:34,800
routes and

928
00:38:41,510 --> 00:38:38,359
the dotted lines represented

929
00:38:42,310 --> 00:38:41,520
expeditions so uh she said where are you

930
00:38:44,630 --> 00:38:42,320
from

931
00:38:45,430 --> 00:38:44,640
on this map where are you and he said

932
00:38:48,470 --> 00:38:45,440
well

933
00:38:51,589 --> 00:38:48,480
where are you on this map and she said

934
00:38:53,030 --> 00:38:51,599
i don't know i know very little about

935
00:38:55,990 --> 00:38:53,040
the universe

936
00:38:56,390 --> 00:38:56,000
and he said well if you don't know where

937
00:39:04,230 --> 00:38:56,400
you

938
00:39:06,470 --> 00:39:04,240
so then he just made it go away

939
00:39:07,589 --> 00:39:06,480
put it back into the wall or whatever

940
00:39:11,270 --> 00:39:07,599
happened

941
00:39:14,390 --> 00:39:11,280
and dr simon told betty

942
00:39:17,589 --> 00:39:14,400
to under hypnotic suggestion

943
00:39:19,750 --> 00:39:17,599
to draw that when she arrived home and

944
00:39:22,069 --> 00:39:19,760
over the next couple of weeks as long as

945
00:39:25,190 --> 00:39:22,079
she could remember it accurately

946
00:39:28,790 --> 00:39:25,200
and it didn't trouble her too much so

947
00:39:31,510 --> 00:39:28,800
uh she did actually draw it

948
00:39:32,630 --> 00:39:31,520
her conscious recall took over a little

949
00:39:37,910 --> 00:39:32,640
bit or her con

950
00:39:41,349 --> 00:39:37,920
rational mind and she erased a line and

951
00:39:44,390 --> 00:39:41,359
drew it differently but marjorie

952
00:39:46,230 --> 00:39:44,400
fish saw it in the first book that was

953
00:39:48,310 --> 00:39:46,240
ever published about their case the

954
00:39:51,349 --> 00:39:48,320
interrupted journey by john g

955
00:39:51,829 --> 00:39:51,359
fuller and marjorie was a brilliant

956
00:39:55,109 --> 00:39:51,839
woman

957
00:39:58,870 --> 00:39:55,119
from ohio she had studied

958
00:39:59,430 --> 00:39:58,880
biology in college she at that time was

959
00:40:02,710 --> 00:39:59,440
a school

960
00:40:05,430 --> 00:40:02,720
teacher she was single and she

961
00:40:07,990 --> 00:40:05,440
was skeptical but she thought that

962
00:40:11,910 --> 00:40:08,000
perhaps she would be able to find

963
00:40:14,069 --> 00:40:11,920
where these non-human entities came from

964
00:40:15,349 --> 00:40:14,079
and so she set out by going to the

965
00:40:18,550 --> 00:40:15,359
university

966
00:40:20,069 --> 00:40:18,560
and there there were no copy machines

967
00:40:24,069 --> 00:40:20,079
back in those days

968
00:40:24,710 --> 00:40:24,079
she had to sit um in the astronomy

969
00:40:27,829 --> 00:40:24,720
department

970
00:40:29,750 --> 00:40:27,839
library and copy all of the

971
00:40:33,030 --> 00:40:29,760
characteristics of the stars

972
00:40:37,190 --> 00:40:33,040
and the distance data that they had

973
00:40:40,870 --> 00:40:37,200
at that time and she did this

974
00:40:44,069 --> 00:40:40,880
for all parts the

975
00:40:47,349 --> 00:40:44,079
complete circle around our sun

976
00:40:50,230 --> 00:40:47,359
out 54 light years and she started

977
00:40:51,510 --> 00:40:50,240
building three-dimensional models using

978
00:40:54,790 --> 00:40:51,520
a frame

979
00:40:56,150 --> 00:40:54,800
and monofilament line and beads of

980
00:40:59,910 --> 00:40:56,160
various sizes

981
00:41:01,990 --> 00:40:59,920
and colors to represent the types of

982
00:41:04,950 --> 00:41:02,000
stars that they were

983
00:41:05,510 --> 00:41:04,960
and imagine the work she had to do to

984
00:41:09,030 --> 00:41:05,520
take this

985
00:41:12,790 --> 00:41:09,040
information back and to do the math

986
00:41:15,950 --> 00:41:12,800
to calculate where each of these stars

987
00:41:17,430 --> 00:41:15,960
was supposed to be in its

988
00:41:20,710 --> 00:41:17,440
three-dimensional

989
00:41:24,710 --> 00:41:20,720
frame and

990
00:41:29,270 --> 00:41:24,720
years went by and uh she still

991
00:41:32,470 --> 00:41:29,280
did not have a match by 1972

992
00:41:34,550 --> 00:41:32,480
and she but she persevered she had been

993
00:41:35,990 --> 00:41:34,560
she had interviewed betty she had been

994
00:41:40,710 --> 00:41:36,000
to new hampshire

995
00:41:44,390 --> 00:41:40,720
um and finally a new gliese catalog was

996
00:41:47,829 --> 00:41:44,400
released in 1972 with new distance data

997
00:41:48,710 --> 00:41:47,839
and stars that were identified within 54

998
00:41:52,630 --> 00:41:48,720
light years

999
00:41:53,990 --> 00:41:52,640
that hadn't been on the in the previous

1000
00:41:57,510 --> 00:41:54,000
catalogs

1001
00:42:00,630 --> 00:41:57,520
so she took this new information home

1002
00:42:02,630 --> 00:42:00,640
and she

1003
00:42:03,910 --> 00:42:02,640
had another star map another

1004
00:42:06,950 --> 00:42:03,920
construction

1005
00:42:10,550 --> 00:42:06,960
and using the new distance

1006
00:42:14,710 --> 00:42:10,560
data using that new data she

1007
00:42:17,270 --> 00:42:14,720
found a match so this was extraordinary

1008
00:42:20,470 --> 00:42:17,280
finally after all these years of work

1009
00:42:21,190 --> 00:42:20,480
she had found a match but who would she

1010
00:42:24,230 --> 00:42:21,200
find to

1011
00:42:26,309 --> 00:42:24,240
vet her work for accuracy who in the

1012
00:42:29,670 --> 00:42:26,319
scientific community

1013
00:42:33,190 --> 00:42:29,680
so she was she joined apro the

1014
00:42:35,750 --> 00:42:33,200
aerial phenomena research organization

1015
00:42:36,950 --> 00:42:35,760
that was directed by coral and jim

1016
00:42:39,829 --> 00:42:36,960
lorenzen

1017
00:42:41,990 --> 00:42:39,839
she got in touch with coral and coral

1018
00:42:45,109 --> 00:42:42,000
contacted stanton

1019
00:42:48,470 --> 00:42:45,119
and he coral said if you were ever

1020
00:42:51,510 --> 00:42:48,480
in ohio would you please

1021
00:42:53,990 --> 00:42:51,520
meet with bard marjorie fish and

1022
00:42:55,430 --> 00:42:54,000
if you find that she's a credible person

1023
00:42:58,790 --> 00:42:55,440
to talk to

1024
00:43:00,230 --> 00:42:58,800
then uh please find scientists who will

1025
00:43:03,349 --> 00:43:00,240
vet her work

1026
00:43:06,630 --> 00:43:03,359
so that's what stanton did eventually

1027
00:43:09,829 --> 00:43:06,640
he uh went to marjory's house he told

1028
00:43:13,510 --> 00:43:09,839
me that marjorie

1029
00:43:14,950 --> 00:43:13,520
was he thought more comfortable speaking

1030
00:43:16,950 --> 00:43:14,960
with scientists

1031
00:43:19,510 --> 00:43:16,960
than with speaking with the general

1032
00:43:21,670 --> 00:43:19,520
public marjorie

1033
00:43:22,870 --> 00:43:21,680
was a member of mensah meaning that she

1034
00:43:26,470 --> 00:43:22,880
had a very high

1035
00:43:29,670 --> 00:43:26,480
iq and he found her

1036
00:43:32,790 --> 00:43:29,680
to be impressive quiet and shy

1037
00:43:35,030 --> 00:43:32,800
but highly intelligent and uh

1038
00:43:36,309 --> 00:43:35,040
he was impressed by the work that she

1039
00:43:39,589 --> 00:43:36,319
had done

1040
00:43:43,349 --> 00:43:39,599
so he contacted dr

1041
00:43:44,230 --> 00:43:43,359
j allen heineck and dr heineck at that

1042
00:43:48,150 --> 00:43:44,240
time

1043
00:43:51,349 --> 00:43:48,160
was at northwestern university

1044
00:43:55,510 --> 00:43:51,359
and he was the head of the

1045
00:43:58,950 --> 00:43:55,520
dearborn observatory

1046
00:44:00,150 --> 00:43:58,960
at that time and so stanton and marjorie

1047
00:44:03,030 --> 00:44:00,160
went up

1048
00:44:04,550 --> 00:44:03,040
to and marjorie had written a report for

1049
00:44:07,589 --> 00:44:04,560
dr heineck

1050
00:44:08,069 --> 00:44:07,599
and they met with him they took a star

1051
00:44:11,990 --> 00:44:08,079
map

1052
00:44:14,470 --> 00:44:12,000
model and he looked at all of the work

1053
00:44:15,829 --> 00:44:14,480
and he said that marjorie's work was

1054
00:44:19,190 --> 00:44:15,839
accurate

1055
00:44:22,470 --> 00:44:19,200
he also contacted dr david

1056
00:44:25,670 --> 00:44:22,480
saunders dr saunders was

1057
00:44:27,589 --> 00:44:25,680
one of the lead uh investigators

1058
00:44:29,510 --> 00:44:27,599
for the condon committee at the

1059
00:44:32,230 --> 00:44:29,520
university of colorado

1060
00:44:33,670 --> 00:44:32,240
scientific study on ufos he was a

1061
00:44:37,270 --> 00:44:33,680
statistician

1062
00:44:40,390 --> 00:44:37,280
he discovered that it was very accurate

1063
00:44:41,109 --> 00:44:40,400
as well there was only one line that was

1064
00:44:44,710 --> 00:44:41,119
a little bit

1065
00:44:48,470 --> 00:44:44,720
off and probably that was the line that

1066
00:44:54,790 --> 00:44:51,670
and uh and then eventually

1067
00:44:58,150 --> 00:44:54,800
uh ohio state university uh

1068
00:45:00,550 --> 00:44:58,160
the astronomy department examined it too

1069
00:45:02,630 --> 00:45:00,560
and at that time they did finally have

1070
00:45:06,710 --> 00:45:02,640
computers and they discovered that

1071
00:45:10,630 --> 00:45:06,720
again marjorie's work was indeed

1072
00:45:13,829 --> 00:45:10,640
uh reliable and uh accurate

1073
00:45:17,109 --> 00:45:13,839
and uh so this was big news

1074
00:45:20,710 --> 00:45:17,119
the next thing stanton did is he

1075
00:45:22,150 --> 00:45:20,720
wrote an article with a professional

1076
00:45:26,069 --> 00:45:22,160
writer from

1077
00:45:29,109 --> 00:45:26,079
california that he had worked with and

1078
00:45:33,670 --> 00:45:29,119
it was published in a magazine and then

1079
00:45:36,790 --> 00:45:33,680
stanton contacted terence dickinson

1080
00:45:40,230 --> 00:45:36,800
who was an astronomer uh from

1081
00:45:43,030 --> 00:45:40,240
astronomy magazine and he became

1082
00:45:43,510 --> 00:45:43,040
interested in marjorie's work and wrote

1083
00:46:26,309 --> 00:45:43,520
a

1084
00:46:27,109 --> 00:46:26,319
if you looked into the sky but there

1085
00:46:30,230 --> 00:46:27,119
were very

1086
00:46:31,430 --> 00:46:30,240
important characteristics regarding the

1087
00:46:35,109 --> 00:46:31,440
star map

1088
00:46:37,349 --> 00:46:35,119
and uh that was not brought up by any of

1089
00:46:40,550 --> 00:46:37,359
the people who criticized it

1090
00:46:43,829 --> 00:46:40,560
and that was that

1091
00:46:47,750 --> 00:46:43,839
uh all of the stars connected by

1092
00:46:48,790 --> 00:46:47,760
lines on betty's map uh were sun-like

1093
00:46:55,190 --> 00:46:48,800
stars

1094
00:46:56,309 --> 00:46:55,200
in our local galactic neighborhood out

1095
00:46:59,030 --> 00:46:56,319
54

1096
00:47:00,069 --> 00:46:59,040
light years are considered star-like

1097
00:47:05,990 --> 00:47:00,079
stars

1098
00:47:06,950 --> 00:47:06,000
in that volume of space were on betty's

1099
00:47:09,510 --> 00:47:06,960
map

1100
00:47:11,030 --> 00:47:09,520
the chances of that happening just by

1101
00:47:14,470 --> 00:47:11,040
coincidence

1102
00:47:16,710 --> 00:47:14,480
was a thousand to one

1103
00:47:17,910 --> 00:47:16,720
and it would have been higher if that

1104
00:47:20,549 --> 00:47:17,920
one line

1105
00:47:21,510 --> 00:47:20,559
had not been a little bit off in its

1106
00:47:24,870 --> 00:47:21,520
angle

1107
00:47:28,790 --> 00:47:24,880
so that was incredibly important and

1108
00:47:33,190 --> 00:47:28,800
terence dickinson in his uh analysis

1109
00:47:37,270 --> 00:47:33,200
of marjorie's work stated that if

1110
00:47:40,710 --> 00:47:37,280
we were on zeta reticuli that's where

1111
00:47:44,150 --> 00:47:40,720
it was identified as the two uh large

1112
00:47:48,150 --> 00:47:44,160
stars with the five lines between them

1113
00:47:48,630 --> 00:47:48,160
if we uh were launching a space program

1114
00:47:51,910 --> 00:47:48,640
and we

1115
00:47:52,950 --> 00:47:51,920
wanted to go to the sun to our solar

1116
00:47:55,190 --> 00:47:52,960
system

1117
00:47:56,069 --> 00:47:55,200
that was the pattern that we would

1118
00:47:59,349 --> 00:47:56,079
follow

1119
00:48:02,230 --> 00:47:59,359
uh we would go from star to star

1120
00:48:04,069 --> 00:48:02,240
um and and look for planets where we

1121
00:48:07,190 --> 00:48:04,079
could set up temporary

1122
00:48:10,470 --> 00:48:07,200
bases uh and

1123
00:48:13,750 --> 00:48:10,480
to go on to the next star system and

1124
00:48:16,870 --> 00:48:13,760
that all of these stars were in a plane

1125
00:48:19,910 --> 00:48:16,880
like pepperoni on pizza rather than

1126
00:48:20,790 --> 00:48:19,920
uh raisins in a loaf of raisin bread so

1127
00:48:24,309 --> 00:48:20,800
it made

1128
00:48:25,750 --> 00:48:24,319
sense uh with distance near a star to

1129
00:48:28,790 --> 00:48:25,760
nearest star

1130
00:48:32,150 --> 00:48:28,800
so that map uh was

1131
00:48:35,349 --> 00:48:32,160
far more important than just identifying

1132
00:48:38,710 --> 00:48:35,359
stars uh in

1133
00:48:41,349 --> 00:48:38,720
in the sky it those stars had very

1134
00:48:43,670 --> 00:48:41,359
special properties

1135
00:48:45,670 --> 00:48:43,680
and uh just uh one thing that you didn't

1136
00:48:47,109 --> 00:48:45,680
mention i happen to know because i i'm

1137
00:48:49,589 --> 00:48:47,119
kind of into this star map

1138
00:48:51,990 --> 00:48:49,599
is that the zeta reticuli is uh not

1139
00:48:54,390 --> 00:48:52,000
observable from the northern hemisphere

1140
00:48:56,390 --> 00:48:54,400
uh you'd have to go down to australia or

1141
00:48:59,430 --> 00:48:56,400
south america or someplace like that

1142
00:49:00,230 --> 00:48:59,440
in order to see it so yes that is true

1143
00:49:03,510 --> 00:49:00,240
and it's still

1144
00:49:05,510 --> 00:49:03,520
and it's very dim i was told if you're

1145
00:49:07,270 --> 00:49:05,520
in australia you're looking at it or

1146
00:49:09,829 --> 00:49:07,280
south america looking at it

1147
00:49:11,990 --> 00:49:09,839
it's in the constellation reticulum the

1148
00:49:14,470 --> 00:49:12,000
net

1149
00:49:15,670 --> 00:49:14,480
and uh yeah just uh moving along so uh

1150
00:49:18,309 --> 00:49:15,680
you're uh

1151
00:49:20,470 --> 00:49:18,319
stanton that friedman gets interested in

1152
00:49:22,069 --> 00:49:20,480
the star map uh not surprisingly you

1153
00:49:24,630 --> 00:49:22,079
know he's a scientist so

1154
00:49:26,069 --> 00:49:24,640
uh he that's something that you can kind

1155
00:49:28,390 --> 00:49:26,079
of sink your teeth into

1156
00:49:31,589 --> 00:49:28,400
but at what point did they you begin

1157
00:49:36,950 --> 00:49:31,599
your act of collaboration

1158
00:49:39,670 --> 00:49:36,960
we began our collaboration in 2005.

1159
00:49:41,349 --> 00:49:39,680
we had shortly after betty's death i'd

1160
00:49:44,309 --> 00:49:41,359
written a manuscript

1161
00:49:45,990 --> 00:49:44,319
i'd been investigating that case for 14

1162
00:49:49,510 --> 00:49:46,000
years

1163
00:49:52,549 --> 00:49:49,520
and betty had told me

1164
00:49:55,670 --> 00:49:52,559
that if i needed any assistance with

1165
00:49:56,630 --> 00:49:55,680
the book that i should contact stanton

1166
00:49:59,430 --> 00:49:56,640
friedman

1167
00:49:59,829 --> 00:49:59,440
because he was honest and i could trust

1168
00:50:03,270 --> 00:49:59,839
him

1169
00:50:06,710 --> 00:50:03,280
implicitly he was meticulous and so

1170
00:50:09,829 --> 00:50:06,720
i approached stanton in 2005

1171
00:50:11,910 --> 00:50:09,839
and spoke to him about this and

1172
00:50:13,030 --> 00:50:11,920
asked me if he'd be interested in

1173
00:50:15,109 --> 00:50:13,040
joining me

1174
00:50:17,750 --> 00:50:15,119
we had already worked on a television

1175
00:50:20,150 --> 00:50:17,760
show together after betty's death

1176
00:50:21,030 --> 00:50:20,160
and in the white mountains of new

1177
00:50:22,950 --> 00:50:21,040
hampshire

1178
00:50:24,069 --> 00:50:22,960
and he said well i want to see what you

1179
00:50:26,309 --> 00:50:24,079
have first

1180
00:50:27,270 --> 00:50:26,319
i'm not going to agree to anything

1181
00:50:32,069 --> 00:50:27,280
without seeing

1182
00:50:34,470 --> 00:50:32,079
it and so we arranged for him to come to

1183
00:50:35,589 --> 00:50:34,480
my house i was living with my husband in

1184
00:50:38,950 --> 00:50:35,599
new hampshire

1185
00:50:41,990 --> 00:50:38,960
the seacoast

1186
00:50:43,430 --> 00:50:42,000
and he drove down he spent a few days

1187
00:50:46,790 --> 00:50:43,440
with us

1188
00:50:49,510 --> 00:50:46,800
i had betty's entire collection

1189
00:50:51,030 --> 00:50:49,520
that i was preparing to establish an

1190
00:50:53,510 --> 00:50:51,040
archival collection

1191
00:50:54,950 --> 00:50:53,520
at the university of new hampshire so i

1192
00:50:58,069 --> 00:50:54,960
had all of those

1193
00:50:59,030 --> 00:50:58,079
archival files and i let stanton

1194
00:51:02,150 --> 00:50:59,040
photocopy

1195
00:51:03,670 --> 00:51:02,160
anything that he wanted he read my

1196
00:51:06,790 --> 00:51:03,680
manuscript

1197
00:51:10,309 --> 00:51:06,800
and we talked for hours on

1198
00:51:13,510 --> 00:51:10,319
end and at the end of this

1199
00:51:15,510 --> 00:51:13,520
he said to me i will join you in writing

1200
00:51:15,990 --> 00:51:15,520
this book because i can see that you're

1201
00:51:20,870 --> 00:51:16,000
being

1202
00:51:22,230 --> 00:51:20,880
he said i wouldn't work with you any

1203
00:51:25,510 --> 00:51:22,240
other way

1204
00:51:29,270 --> 00:51:25,520
and so uh he he did

1205
00:51:32,069 --> 00:51:29,280
like my my mind and the way i thought

1206
00:51:33,349 --> 00:51:32,079
he he used to say that we thought alike

1207
00:51:36,710 --> 00:51:33,359
that we processed

1208
00:51:39,589 --> 00:51:36,720
information in much the same way and so

1209
00:51:39,990 --> 00:51:39,599
we worked very well together and we

1210
00:51:47,109 --> 00:51:40,000
wrote

1211
00:51:50,150 --> 00:51:47,119
one on the star map and one on

1212
00:51:53,349 --> 00:51:50,160
uh dis informants and disbelievers

1213
00:51:56,150 --> 00:51:53,359
and he assisted me with a little bit

1214
00:51:58,069 --> 00:51:56,160
more of of the work that i was writing i

1215
00:52:01,030 --> 00:51:58,079
wanted him to write more

1216
00:52:02,829 --> 00:52:01,040
as well but he was very busy and he kept

1217
00:52:04,549 --> 00:52:02,839
saying to me you're doing fine keep

1218
00:52:06,790 --> 00:52:04,559
going

1219
00:52:07,589 --> 00:52:06,800
on other parts that he thought would be

1220
00:52:10,790 --> 00:52:07,599
good to put

1221
00:52:13,829 --> 00:52:10,800
into the book so uh

1222
00:52:16,069 --> 00:52:13,839
we finished this together uh dr bruce

1223
00:52:18,390 --> 00:52:16,079
mcabee vetted my work

1224
00:52:19,829 --> 00:52:18,400
and linda moulton howe did in addition

1225
00:52:22,549 --> 00:52:19,839
to stanton

1226
00:52:23,430 --> 00:52:22,559
and uh the book was published and it

1227
00:52:26,309 --> 00:52:23,440
became

1228
00:52:26,630 --> 00:52:26,319
uh number one bestseller in its category

1229
00:52:29,109 --> 00:52:26,640
so

1230
00:52:30,950 --> 00:52:29,119
we were very pleased with that we

1231
00:52:34,230 --> 00:52:30,960
started uh working together

1232
00:52:38,549 --> 00:52:34,240
oftentimes speaking from the same stage

1233
00:52:41,589 --> 00:52:38,559
doing radio shows together and then

1234
00:52:43,190 --> 00:52:41,599
he contacted me one day and he said

1235
00:52:44,950 --> 00:52:43,200
how would you like to write another book

1236
00:52:46,870 --> 00:52:44,960
together and

1237
00:52:48,150 --> 00:52:46,880
i said sure what do you want to write

1238
00:52:51,270 --> 00:52:48,160
about i i

1239
00:52:53,589 --> 00:52:51,280
love writing um i when i went to college

1240
00:52:55,670 --> 00:52:53,599
i always wanted to become a writer

1241
00:52:57,990 --> 00:52:55,680
and but my aunt betty said to me do

1242
00:53:01,829 --> 00:52:58,000
something practical

1243
00:53:05,190 --> 00:53:01,839
as a writer be a social worker so i was

1244
00:53:08,230 --> 00:53:05,200
well you can do both yes yes so i

1245
00:53:11,349 --> 00:53:08,240
i did that and yes

1246
00:53:14,710 --> 00:53:11,359
and so i have pretty much

1247
00:53:16,950 --> 00:53:14,720
over the past 30 years moved toward

1248
00:53:19,910 --> 00:53:16,960
becoming a full-time

1249
00:53:22,630 --> 00:53:19,920
researcher investigator and writer

1250
00:53:25,510 --> 00:53:22,640
stanton and i wrote three books together

1251
00:53:26,150 --> 00:53:25,520
the the last one was fact fiction and

1252
00:53:29,270 --> 00:53:26,160
flying

1253
00:53:31,510 --> 00:53:29,280
saucers and it was about the archival

1254
00:53:34,069 --> 00:53:31,520
research that we had done

1255
00:53:35,030 --> 00:53:34,079
because he had been to many archives

1256
00:53:38,470 --> 00:53:35,040
even before

1257
00:53:40,230 --> 00:53:38,480
i we began working together but we went

1258
00:53:44,230 --> 00:53:40,240
to archival collections

1259
00:53:47,349 --> 00:53:44,240
together and read the files

1260
00:53:50,630 --> 00:53:47,359
there and especially donald

1261
00:53:54,390 --> 00:53:50,640
mansell's files philip

1262
00:53:56,950 --> 00:53:54,400
edward condon's files we

1263
00:53:58,150 --> 00:53:56,960
retrieved a tremendous amount of

1264
00:54:01,109 --> 00:53:58,160
information

1265
00:54:01,829 --> 00:54:01,119
that we put into fact fiction and flying

1266
00:54:05,030 --> 00:54:01,839
saucers

1267
00:54:08,230 --> 00:54:05,040
i'm very proud of that book it is all

1268
00:54:10,710 --> 00:54:08,240
uh footnoted and uh

1269
00:54:12,549 --> 00:54:10,720
a huge bibliography yeah kathleen it

1270
00:54:14,790 --> 00:54:12,559
sounds like you were doing a lot of oppo

1271
00:54:17,589 --> 00:54:14,800
research there you were going after the

1272
00:54:18,230 --> 00:54:17,599
archives of the uh the debunkers and the

1273
00:54:25,270 --> 00:54:18,240
uh

1274
00:54:27,829 --> 00:54:25,280
reason for that strategy absolutely

1275
00:54:29,910 --> 00:54:27,839
they were the ones who were uh the

1276
00:54:33,430 --> 00:54:29,920
disinformants who were

1277
00:54:36,069 --> 00:54:33,440
creating false information and i

1278
00:54:38,390 --> 00:54:36,079
first went without stanton to the

1279
00:54:41,109 --> 00:54:38,400
american philosophical society

1280
00:54:43,030 --> 00:54:41,119
to read philip class's archival

1281
00:54:45,829 --> 00:54:43,040
collection specifically

1282
00:54:46,470 --> 00:54:45,839
to see what he had written about betty

1283
00:54:50,230 --> 00:54:46,480
hill

1284
00:54:54,069 --> 00:54:50,240
and i found a lot of information

1285
00:54:57,349 --> 00:54:54,079
about him setting her up and uh

1286
00:55:01,030 --> 00:54:57,359
disinforming the public about her work

1287
00:55:04,630 --> 00:55:01,040
and what she was doing and uh

1288
00:55:05,109 --> 00:55:04,640
i i felt that other people needed to

1289
00:55:08,390 --> 00:55:05,119
know

1290
00:55:11,829 --> 00:55:08,400
about this so i ended up acquiring

1291
00:55:13,109 --> 00:55:11,839
philip class's fbi files the files they

1292
00:55:15,990 --> 00:55:13,119
had on him

1293
00:55:16,470 --> 00:55:16,000
and doing a very thorough investigation

1294
00:55:19,510 --> 00:55:16,480
of who

1295
00:55:22,549 --> 00:55:19,520
he was what his background was

1296
00:55:27,190 --> 00:55:22,559
how he ended up becoming

1297
00:55:29,069 --> 00:55:27,200
uh supposedly he was a ufo investigator

1298
00:55:31,750 --> 00:55:29,079
but he was a ufo

1299
00:55:33,349 --> 00:55:31,760
disinformant who took every section of

1300
00:55:35,349 --> 00:55:33,359
betty's and barney's case

1301
00:55:36,630 --> 00:55:35,359
and rewrote it and filled it with

1302
00:55:39,589 --> 00:55:36,640
speculation

1303
00:55:40,069 --> 00:55:39,599
so the things that he wrote are false

1304
00:55:43,750 --> 00:55:40,079
and

1305
00:55:47,109 --> 00:55:43,760
brush as well

1306
00:55:47,670 --> 00:55:47,119
he painted betty is a lifelong science

1307
00:55:51,430 --> 00:55:47,680
fiction

1308
00:55:54,630 --> 00:55:51,440
fan and someone who was a ufo

1309
00:55:57,670 --> 00:55:54,640
kook lifelong and she was not that was

1310
00:55:58,069 --> 00:55:57,680
absolutely false and he painted barney

1311
00:56:05,109 --> 00:55:58,079
as

1312
00:56:07,190 --> 00:56:05,119
that he would do or say anything that

1313
00:56:10,630 --> 00:56:07,200
betty wanted him to

1314
00:56:12,950 --> 00:56:10,640
and that was absolutely false you cannot

1315
00:56:13,670 --> 00:56:12,960
take a black man who marries a white

1316
00:56:17,190 --> 00:56:13,680
woman

1317
00:56:20,470 --> 00:56:17,200
in 1960 and say that he is a

1318
00:56:21,190 --> 00:56:20,480
wimp and a man who is a civil rights

1319
00:56:23,670 --> 00:56:21,200
leader

1320
00:56:24,390 --> 00:56:23,680
and a politician in the state of new

1321
00:56:27,349 --> 00:56:24,400
hampshire

1322
00:56:29,430 --> 00:56:27,359
i don't think anybody doubts kathleen

1323
00:56:31,670 --> 00:56:29,440
that it was

1324
00:56:34,470 --> 00:56:31,680
it was class's job whether it was

1325
00:56:37,349 --> 00:56:34,480
self-imposed or he was a cia asset

1326
00:56:39,430 --> 00:56:37,359
or or fill in the blank to actually sow

1327
00:56:41,430 --> 00:56:39,440
the seeds of doubt in the public's mind

1328
00:56:43,750 --> 00:56:41,440
however i wanted to bring up a few

1329
00:56:45,349 --> 00:56:43,760
interesting things regarding the betting

1330
00:56:48,870 --> 00:56:45,359
barney hill incident

1331
00:56:51,990 --> 00:56:48,880
okay at 1961

1332
00:56:55,510 --> 00:56:52,000
september 18th through uh

1333
00:56:57,829 --> 00:56:55,520
september 20th uh the ussr performed

1334
00:57:00,950 --> 00:56:57,839
nuclear testing at

1335
00:57:04,230 --> 00:57:00,960
zem milia in the ussr

1336
00:57:05,990 --> 00:57:04,240
in almost a straight line 5000 miles

1337
00:57:07,510 --> 00:57:06,000
away from new hampshire where betty and

1338
00:57:09,190 --> 00:57:07,520
barney hill lived i just thought that

1339
00:57:12,549 --> 00:57:09,200
was interesting but anyway

1340
00:57:13,750 --> 00:57:12,559
i wanted our listeners to listen to

1341
00:57:17,109 --> 00:57:13,760
something that is

1342
00:57:18,069 --> 00:57:17,119
fascinating regarding the situation that

1343
00:57:22,549 --> 00:57:18,079
occurred

1344
00:57:25,030 --> 00:57:22,559
betty and barney hill

1345
00:57:25,750 --> 00:57:25,040
and uh something i wanted to let our

1346
00:57:29,910 --> 00:57:25,760
listeners know

1347
00:57:32,230 --> 00:57:29,920
also is there's a huge delineation

1348
00:57:35,750 --> 00:57:32,240
between retelling a story

1349
00:57:36,950 --> 00:57:35,760
and reliving it and that is exactly what

1350
00:57:39,270 --> 00:57:36,960
happened

1351
00:57:40,309 --> 00:57:39,280
with betty and barney hill when they

1352
00:57:43,829 --> 00:57:40,319
went under

1353
00:57:45,349 --> 00:57:43,839
into the hypnosis sessions uh that were

1354
00:57:47,430 --> 00:57:45,359
held by their doctor

1355
00:57:49,910 --> 00:57:47,440
that decided to take on their case on

1356
00:57:51,430 --> 00:57:49,920
february 22nd 1964.

1357
00:57:53,109 --> 00:57:51,440
i wanted to read a little bit of the

1358
00:57:57,670 --> 00:57:53,119
transcript regarding

1359
00:58:01,750 --> 00:57:57,680
an excerpt of what barney was saying to

1360
00:58:05,270 --> 00:58:01,760
his doctor okay and

1361
00:58:07,910 --> 00:58:05,280
so barney says

1362
00:58:08,630 --> 00:58:07,920
i was looking at them with binoculars

1363
00:58:12,150 --> 00:58:08,640
doctor

1364
00:58:14,470 --> 00:58:12,160
oh did they have faces like other people

1365
00:58:16,150 --> 00:58:14,480
you said one was like a redheaded irish

1366
00:58:19,349 --> 00:58:16,160
man barney

1367
00:58:20,390 --> 00:58:19,359
his eyes were slanted oh his eyes were

1368
00:58:23,589 --> 00:58:20,400
slanted

1369
00:58:25,430 --> 00:58:23,599
but not like a chinese oh oh i feel like

1370
00:58:28,870 --> 00:58:25,440
a rabbit i feel like a rabbit

1371
00:58:31,190 --> 00:58:28,880
doctor what do you mean by that barney

1372
00:58:33,030 --> 00:58:31,200
i was hunting for rabbits in virginia

1373
00:58:34,870 --> 00:58:33,040
and this cute little bunny went into a

1374
00:58:36,950 --> 00:58:34,880
bush that was not very big

1375
00:58:38,390 --> 00:58:36,960
and my cousin marge was on the other

1376
00:58:40,710 --> 00:58:38,400
side of the bush

1377
00:58:42,069 --> 00:58:40,720
and i was on the other with a hat and

1378
00:58:43,750 --> 00:58:42,079
the poor little bunny thought he was

1379
00:58:45,750 --> 00:58:43,760
safe and it tickled me because he was

1380
00:58:47,990 --> 00:58:45,760
just hiding behind a little stalk

1381
00:58:49,670 --> 00:58:48,000
which meant security to him when i

1382
00:58:51,349 --> 00:58:49,680
pounced on him and threw my hat on him

1383
00:58:53,910 --> 00:58:51,359
and captured the poor little bunny

1384
00:58:54,789 --> 00:58:53,920
who thought he was safe funny i thought

1385
00:58:58,069 --> 00:58:54,799
of that

1386
00:59:00,230 --> 00:58:58,079
right out there on the field i feel like

1387
00:59:02,630 --> 00:59:00,240
a rabbit

1388
00:59:03,349 --> 00:59:02,640
doctor what was betty doing all this

1389
00:59:06,789 --> 00:59:03,359
time

1390
00:59:08,870 --> 00:59:06,799
barney i can't hear her doctor

1391
00:59:09,910 --> 00:59:08,880
did you make an outcry to her the way

1392
00:59:12,470 --> 00:59:09,920
you did to me

1393
00:59:13,349 --> 00:59:12,480
you would remember if you did barney i

1394
00:59:15,109 --> 00:59:13,359
did not

1395
00:59:17,030 --> 00:59:15,119
i know this creature is telling me

1396
00:59:19,510 --> 00:59:17,040
something doctor

1397
00:59:20,390 --> 00:59:19,520
telling you something how how is he

1398
00:59:23,190 --> 00:59:20,400
getting to you

1399
00:59:23,910 --> 00:59:23,200
barney i can see it in his face no his

1400
00:59:26,950 --> 00:59:23,920
lips

1401
00:59:28,870 --> 00:59:26,960
are not moving he's looking at me and

1402
00:59:29,910 --> 00:59:28,880
he's just telling me don't be afraid i'm

1403
00:59:32,870 --> 00:59:29,920
not a bunny

1404
00:59:35,349 --> 00:59:32,880
i'm going to be i'm going to be safe he

1405
00:59:37,990 --> 00:59:35,359
didn't tell me i was that funny

1406
00:59:38,789 --> 00:59:38,000
doctor did you hear him tell you this

1407
00:59:42,230 --> 00:59:38,799
barney

1408
00:59:45,750 --> 00:59:42,240
oh no he didn't say it doctor

1409
00:59:49,829 --> 00:59:45,760
you felt he said it barney

1410
00:59:52,710 --> 00:59:49,839
i know doctor you know he said it

1411
00:59:54,870 --> 00:59:52,720
barney yes just stay there he said it's

1412
00:59:58,390 --> 00:59:54,880
pounding in my head i gotta get away

1413
01:00:01,670 --> 00:59:58,400
i gotta get away from here now um

1414
01:00:03,349 --> 01:00:01,680
end of uh excerpt i think that it's

1415
01:00:04,789 --> 01:00:03,359
critically important for folks to

1416
01:00:07,589 --> 01:00:04,799
understand

1417
01:00:09,910 --> 01:00:07,599
and that people that have endured these

1418
01:00:13,030 --> 01:00:09,920
kinds of experiences

1419
01:00:14,309 --> 01:00:13,040
have to deal with an injury that you

1420
01:00:16,630 --> 01:00:14,319
can't see

1421
01:00:18,150 --> 01:00:16,640
but it's in their mind and their brain

1422
01:00:20,390 --> 01:00:18,160
and their spirit

1423
01:00:23,109 --> 01:00:20,400
and it's the feeling of being trapped

1424
01:00:24,789 --> 01:00:23,119
and not having control of any kind

1425
01:00:26,549 --> 01:00:24,799
when we're born we're born with the

1426
01:00:27,030 --> 01:00:26,559
inherent right to be able to do what we

1427
01:00:29,349 --> 01:00:27,040
feel

1428
01:00:30,390 --> 01:00:29,359
isn't necessary and important for

1429
01:00:33,510 --> 01:00:30,400
ourselves for our

1430
01:00:34,390 --> 01:00:33,520
safety and happiness and that was taken

1431
01:00:37,589 --> 01:00:34,400
from them

1432
01:00:40,390 --> 01:00:37,599
that night and series of nights after

1433
01:00:41,510 --> 01:00:40,400
thereafter due to emotional drama and

1434
01:00:44,789 --> 01:00:41,520
more

1435
01:00:47,750 --> 01:00:44,799
and um so when people like phyllis

1436
01:00:50,630 --> 01:00:47,760
klaus come into the picture it's really

1437
01:00:52,950 --> 01:00:50,640
sort of their duty and their job

1438
01:00:54,069 --> 01:00:52,960
as a disinformant to make sure the

1439
01:00:56,230 --> 01:00:54,079
public doesn't get

1440
01:00:57,829 --> 01:00:56,240
even a whiff of this kind of terror that

1441
01:00:59,430 --> 01:00:57,839
they went through

1442
01:01:01,589 --> 01:00:59,440
i wanted to bring something to your

1443
01:01:05,750 --> 01:01:01,599
attention by the way kathleen

1444
01:01:07,670 --> 01:01:05,760
and that is and i wanted to ask if you

1445
01:01:10,549 --> 01:01:07,680
agree with this

1446
01:01:11,349 --> 01:01:10,559
and that is it appears as though this

1447
01:01:16,069 --> 01:01:11,359
phenomena

1448
01:01:19,030 --> 01:01:16,079
more

1449
01:01:19,430 --> 01:01:19,040
are extremely multi-dimensional so much

1450
01:01:22,710 --> 01:01:19,440
so

1451
01:01:24,710 --> 01:01:22,720
that traditional science is not really

1452
01:01:28,309 --> 01:01:24,720
up to the task

1453
01:01:32,630 --> 01:01:28,319
of facing the challenges

1454
01:01:35,109 --> 01:01:32,640
of it and in addition to that

1455
01:01:37,670 --> 01:01:35,119
that there's part of the phenomena that

1456
01:01:40,549 --> 01:01:37,680
might yield to science

1457
01:01:42,309 --> 01:01:40,559
only if they wanted to do you agree with

1458
01:01:45,670 --> 01:01:42,319
that

1459
01:01:50,710 --> 01:01:45,680
why

1460
01:01:53,910 --> 01:01:50,720
we have used different terminology now

1461
01:01:56,069 --> 01:01:53,920
gone from flying discs as they called

1462
01:01:59,430 --> 01:01:56,079
them in the 1940s

1463
01:02:02,950 --> 01:01:59,440
to ufos

1464
01:02:06,549 --> 01:02:02,960
and unidentified flying objects to now

1465
01:02:09,950 --> 01:02:06,559
uaps unidentified aerial phenomena

1466
01:02:12,150 --> 01:02:09,960
because it is phenomena and way back in

1467
01:02:14,950 --> 01:02:12,160
1952

1468
01:02:16,630 --> 01:02:14,960
major general john alexander held a

1469
01:02:19,270 --> 01:02:16,640
press conference

1470
01:02:19,990 --> 01:02:19,280
at the pentagon it was the largest press

1471
01:02:23,589 --> 01:02:20,000
conference

1472
01:02:27,430 --> 01:02:23,599
since the end of world war ii and he

1473
01:02:30,309 --> 01:02:27,440
uh said in the his opening remarks

1474
01:02:30,710 --> 01:02:30,319
that these things have been seen in the

1475
01:02:34,230 --> 01:02:30,720
air

1476
01:02:36,710 --> 01:02:34,240
dating back to biblical times they come

1477
01:02:40,309 --> 01:02:36,720
back about once every century

1478
01:02:45,109 --> 01:02:40,319
they're reported and then they go away

1479
01:02:49,190 --> 01:02:45,119
and uh he said that they came back in

1480
01:02:52,549 --> 01:02:49,200
the 20th century and they're still here

1481
01:02:54,630 --> 01:02:52,559
and that the air force was studying this

1482
01:02:56,390 --> 01:02:54,640
very carefully they weren't getting

1483
01:02:57,670 --> 01:02:56,400
upset they were doing it very

1484
01:03:00,069 --> 01:02:57,680
methodically

1485
01:03:00,950 --> 01:03:00,079
but he said the only thing that can

1486
01:03:05,430 --> 01:03:00,960
explain this

1487
01:03:08,470 --> 01:03:05,440
is phenomena now um

1488
01:03:11,029 --> 01:03:08,480
part of this phenomenon

1489
01:03:11,910 --> 01:03:11,039
or phenomena there's a whole other

1490
01:03:14,390 --> 01:03:11,920
psychic

1491
01:03:15,750 --> 01:03:14,400
or psychological dimension to it that

1492
01:03:19,270 --> 01:03:15,760
not even

1493
01:03:20,549 --> 01:03:19,280
psychology can come close to with

1494
01:03:22,870 --> 01:03:20,559
regards to

1495
01:03:24,069 --> 01:03:22,880
scrutinizing it which is quite

1496
01:03:26,309 --> 01:03:24,079
compelling

1497
01:03:28,309 --> 01:03:26,319
um so on the one hand humans have to

1498
01:03:30,190 --> 01:03:28,319
grapple with the fact

1499
01:03:31,910 --> 01:03:30,200
or the possibility that this

1500
01:03:33,670 --> 01:03:31,920
multi-dimensional

1501
01:03:35,029 --> 01:03:33,680
fill in the blank whatever you want to

1502
01:03:38,230 --> 01:03:35,039
call it

1503
01:03:39,750 --> 01:03:38,240
aside from phenomena uh

1504
01:03:41,510 --> 01:03:39,760
which has probably been happening for

1505
01:03:44,710 --> 01:03:41,520
millions of years

1506
01:03:48,549 --> 01:03:44,720
yes what well the

1507
01:03:52,549 --> 01:03:48,559
part of the issue is our minds

1508
01:03:55,430 --> 01:03:52,559
can't seem to wrap itself around

1509
01:03:58,069 --> 01:03:55,440
the phenomena in its entirety and that's

1510
01:04:01,190 --> 01:03:58,079
kind of a grandiose thing to say but

1511
01:04:01,910 --> 01:04:01,200
you know there's hundreds of thousands

1512
01:04:04,150 --> 01:04:01,920
of

1513
01:04:05,510 --> 01:04:04,160
abductees contactees witnesses

1514
01:04:07,349 --> 01:04:05,520
experiencers

1515
01:04:10,390 --> 01:04:07,359
who have all complained and rightfully

1516
01:04:13,510 --> 01:04:10,400
so that they have ptsd from

1517
01:04:15,029 --> 01:04:13,520
their experiences some have been good

1518
01:04:17,029 --> 01:04:15,039
experiences but

1519
01:04:19,750 --> 01:04:17,039
uh there have been plenty who have

1520
01:04:21,430 --> 01:04:19,760
plenty meaning people who have had

1521
01:04:23,029 --> 01:04:21,440
tremendous issues in their lives that

1522
01:04:24,230 --> 01:04:23,039
they can't seem to get over because they

1523
01:04:27,349 --> 01:04:24,240
were exposed

1524
01:04:30,630 --> 01:04:27,359
to it and so

1525
01:04:32,309 --> 01:04:30,640
you have had the privilege and honor of

1526
01:04:35,109 --> 01:04:32,319
attending to people

1527
01:04:37,910 --> 01:04:35,119
in a very caring way and part of your

1528
01:04:39,270 --> 01:04:37,920
job is being a professional listener

1529
01:04:42,390 --> 01:04:39,280
and one thing i like to let our

1530
01:04:45,270 --> 01:04:42,400
listeners know that kathleen has a very

1531
01:04:47,750 --> 01:04:45,280
astute and acute skill set out

1532
01:04:48,549 --> 01:04:47,760
is listening and that's something that

1533
01:04:51,029 --> 01:04:48,559
most people

1534
01:04:51,910 --> 01:04:51,039
don't have and that is the ability to

1535
01:04:53,589 --> 01:04:51,920
actually listen

1536
01:04:55,670 --> 01:04:53,599
very carefully to what people have to

1537
01:04:58,150 --> 01:04:55,680
say

1538
01:05:01,670 --> 01:04:58,160
so i wanted to ask you because people

1539
01:05:04,950 --> 01:05:01,680
have been so highly traumatized

1540
01:05:07,029 --> 01:05:04,960
by these by this phenomena

1541
01:05:08,549 --> 01:05:07,039
how have you been able to help people

1542
01:05:11,990 --> 01:05:08,559
come to terms

1543
01:05:14,710 --> 01:05:12,000
with this very multi-dimensional

1544
01:05:18,150 --> 01:05:14,720
psychological dimension to this

1545
01:05:23,270 --> 01:05:21,829
well i think that many many people that

1546
01:05:26,309 --> 01:05:23,280
i've worked with

1547
01:05:28,870 --> 01:05:26,319
uh traumatized because they think

1548
01:05:29,910 --> 01:05:28,880
that they've been taken to craft and

1549
01:05:33,750 --> 01:05:29,920
treated like

1550
01:05:36,390 --> 01:05:33,760
lab rats and they feel that this

1551
01:05:37,270 --> 01:05:36,400
is abusive intrusive terrible things

1552
01:05:40,710 --> 01:05:37,280
have happened

1553
01:05:43,990 --> 01:05:40,720
but they can't remember and when i

1554
01:05:51,349 --> 01:05:47,190
especially when i

1555
01:05:54,870 --> 01:05:51,359
tell them you know i i'm not a licensed

1556
01:05:56,150 --> 01:05:54,880
uh psychotherapist i would like before i

1557
01:06:00,309 --> 01:05:56,160
work with you

1558
01:06:05,270 --> 01:06:00,319
to uh please see a licensed

1559
01:06:09,589 --> 01:06:05,280
therapist who might use uh

1560
01:06:13,109 --> 01:06:09,599
uh a technique using rapid eye movement

1561
01:06:16,470 --> 01:06:13,119
so that you can

1562
01:06:21,029 --> 01:06:16,480
talk about this and you'll even remember

1563
01:06:24,549 --> 01:06:21,039
part of this with a licensed

1564
01:06:26,230 --> 01:06:24,559
psychotherapist and people will go

1565
01:06:27,990 --> 01:06:26,240
and they will do that and they'll

1566
01:06:31,829 --> 01:06:28,000
remember a little bit

1567
01:06:35,430 --> 01:06:31,839
when they have worked through the trauma

1568
01:06:38,309 --> 01:06:35,440
then they can come to me and i will work

1569
01:06:40,789 --> 01:06:38,319
with them in hypnosis so that they can

1570
01:06:41,990 --> 01:06:40,799
remember more if that's what they wish

1571
01:06:46,230 --> 01:06:42,000
to do

1572
01:06:49,510 --> 01:06:46,240
but uh what i'm finding is that

1573
01:06:52,789 --> 01:06:49,520
people are not having these terrible

1574
01:06:55,510 --> 01:06:52,799
memories of contact that we've

1575
01:06:58,390 --> 01:06:55,520
read about and i'm i don't know how i

1576
01:07:00,870 --> 01:06:58,400
can reconcile this

1577
01:07:01,990 --> 01:07:00,880
because i'm not leading them in any way

1578
01:07:05,270 --> 01:07:02,000
in fact

1579
01:07:05,750 --> 01:07:05,280
i use forensic hypnosis which is doesn't

1580
01:07:09,029 --> 01:07:05,760
lead

1581
01:07:11,430 --> 01:07:09,039
at all and

1582
01:07:12,829 --> 01:07:11,440
it was the type of hypnosis used by law

1583
01:07:16,549 --> 01:07:12,839
enforcement

1584
01:07:19,829 --> 01:07:16,559
and but when

1585
01:07:22,150 --> 01:07:19,839
people talk with me

1586
01:07:24,789 --> 01:07:22,160
they they might set up just a

1587
01:07:26,549 --> 01:07:24,799
consultation with me to talk

1588
01:07:28,150 --> 01:07:26,559
uh there's something i don't know what

1589
01:07:31,750 --> 01:07:28,160
it is about me but

1590
01:07:32,950 --> 01:07:31,760
they lose their fear yeah i wanted to

1591
01:07:34,630 --> 01:07:32,960
talk about something

1592
01:07:36,390 --> 01:07:34,640
very briefly that happened to me that

1593
01:07:38,630 --> 01:07:36,400
i've never talked about on

1594
01:07:39,510 --> 01:07:38,640
any of our shows and that is 20 years

1595
01:07:42,549 --> 01:07:39,520
ago

1596
01:07:44,069 --> 01:07:42,559
i was in the realm of uh

1597
01:07:46,069 --> 01:07:44,079
involved in the realm of technology

1598
01:07:46,950 --> 01:07:46,079
career-wise and i went to a christmas

1599
01:07:51,670 --> 01:07:46,960
party

1600
01:07:54,390 --> 01:07:51,680
at night

1601
01:07:54,789 --> 01:07:54,400
uh it was it was during the day but it

1602
01:07:58,549 --> 01:07:54,799
turned

1603
01:08:00,630 --> 01:07:58,559
dark rather quickly and

1604
01:08:02,789 --> 01:08:00,640
a friend of mine whom i worked with at

1605
01:08:03,829 --> 01:08:02,799
that time we went out into the veranda

1606
01:08:06,230 --> 01:08:03,839
like a porch-like

1607
01:08:07,270 --> 01:08:06,240
area on the a higher story of the

1608
01:08:10,069 --> 01:08:07,280
building

1609
01:08:11,029 --> 01:08:10,079
uh where that christmas party was and we

1610
01:08:14,069 --> 01:08:11,039
looked out

1611
01:08:16,550 --> 01:08:14,079
and we both saw the same thing and

1612
01:08:17,990 --> 01:08:16,560
it was just this uh thing in the sky

1613
01:08:20,550 --> 01:08:18,000
that was circular

1614
01:08:22,229 --> 01:08:20,560
with a strange line going around on the

1615
01:08:24,309 --> 01:08:22,239
inside of it and another line staying

1616
01:08:27,510 --> 01:08:24,319
stationary it looked just like a

1617
01:08:29,349 --> 01:08:27,520
a clock and it was an x-ray color and i

1618
01:08:31,430 --> 01:08:29,359
didn't ask him leading questions i just

1619
01:08:32,070 --> 01:08:31,440
asked him if he saw anything in the sky

1620
01:08:35,590 --> 01:08:32,080
and

1621
01:08:39,430 --> 01:08:35,600
saw the same thing i did

1622
01:08:42,789 --> 01:08:39,440
and then i we stared at it

1623
01:08:44,870 --> 01:08:42,799
with our mouths open and uh just

1624
01:08:47,349 --> 01:08:44,880
thought that was very strange that the

1625
01:08:49,030 --> 01:08:47,359
people on the ground were laughing at us

1626
01:08:51,829 --> 01:08:49,040
and then none of them were looking up at

1627
01:08:52,309 --> 01:08:51,839
the sky and they were couples that were

1628
01:08:55,829 --> 01:08:52,319
laying

1629
01:08:58,950 --> 01:08:55,839
um on the ground in the grass

1630
01:09:00,470 --> 01:08:58,960
um there was a long length of grass and

1631
01:09:04,070 --> 01:09:00,480
that comes into play later

1632
01:09:06,149 --> 01:09:04,080
anyway uh we uh

1633
01:09:07,910 --> 01:09:06,159
i told him i was gonna leave and the

1634
01:09:09,669 --> 01:09:07,920
party didn't hold any value to me at

1635
01:09:11,510 --> 01:09:09,679
that point i wasn't drinking neither was

1636
01:09:14,709 --> 01:09:11,520
he was not a drinker

1637
01:09:16,229 --> 01:09:14,719
and i uh walked down to my vehicle in

1638
01:09:19,430 --> 01:09:16,239
the dark

1639
01:09:19,990 --> 01:09:19,440
and when i got to by the time i got to

1640
01:09:22,630 --> 01:09:20,000
my vehicle

1641
01:09:23,910 --> 01:09:22,640
i saw a grid that was starting to light

1642
01:09:25,829 --> 01:09:23,920
up around me

1643
01:09:27,510 --> 01:09:25,839
and i hopped in my vehicle and i thought

1644
01:09:28,309 --> 01:09:27,520
oh god somebody put something in my

1645
01:09:30,070 --> 01:09:28,319
drink

1646
01:09:32,390 --> 01:09:30,080
i would like to get home before then if

1647
01:09:35,430 --> 01:09:32,400
possible if not i'll pull off and

1648
01:09:37,910 --> 01:09:35,440
and figure it out from there um

1649
01:09:40,709 --> 01:09:37,920
i felt completely sober i was dry as i

1650
01:09:43,510 --> 01:09:40,719
was driving home i didn't feel anything

1651
01:09:44,229 --> 01:09:43,520
taking over my mind in the sense of you

1652
01:09:46,309 --> 01:09:44,239
know like

1653
01:09:49,189 --> 01:09:46,319
feeling like i had drunk anything like

1654
01:09:51,749 --> 01:09:49,199
that would make me feel

1655
01:09:53,590 --> 01:09:51,759
odd the only thing i noticed was

1656
01:09:55,990 --> 01:09:53,600
visually i saw this grid starting to

1657
01:09:58,470 --> 01:09:56,000
light up brighter and brighter around me

1658
01:10:00,870 --> 01:09:58,480
and when i say grid i mean a grid that

1659
01:10:02,550 --> 01:10:00,880
bent around me not just like straight up

1660
01:10:05,590 --> 01:10:02,560
and down but

1661
01:10:07,030 --> 01:10:05,600
started to swirl around me and i got

1662
01:10:10,550 --> 01:10:07,040
home

1663
01:10:16,709 --> 01:10:10,560
like a

1664
01:10:18,470 --> 01:10:16,719
and i didn't say anything to the

1665
01:10:19,189 --> 01:10:18,480
individual who was at my house at the

1666
01:10:21,189 --> 01:10:19,199
time

1667
01:10:23,110 --> 01:10:21,199
and the house was quite dark and the

1668
01:10:24,709 --> 01:10:23,120
individual that was there was actually

1669
01:10:26,229 --> 01:10:24,719
good friends with a few of the people i

1670
01:10:27,990 --> 01:10:26,239
worked with and asked me how the party

1671
01:10:31,189 --> 01:10:28,000
was they said it was fine

1672
01:10:33,990 --> 01:10:31,199
and i stayed very quiet and um

1673
01:10:34,310 --> 01:10:34,000
i one thing i've always made sure was to

1674
01:10:36,709 --> 01:10:34,320
not

1675
01:10:38,630 --> 01:10:36,719
ask people leading questions depending

1676
01:10:40,390 --> 01:10:38,640
on if it's an interview but

1677
01:10:41,830 --> 01:10:40,400
if there's something going on not to ask

1678
01:10:43,270 --> 01:10:41,840
some leading questions so i didn't say

1679
01:10:46,310 --> 01:10:43,280
anything at all

1680
01:10:48,550 --> 01:10:46,320
and i just figured it was in my head and

1681
01:10:50,070 --> 01:10:48,560
uh we were very quiet and he said what

1682
01:10:54,149 --> 01:10:50,080
is that and i said what

1683
01:10:56,790 --> 01:10:54,159
what is what and he said it's a grid

1684
01:10:58,310 --> 01:10:56,800
that's a grid and i said you see it too

1685
01:11:00,310 --> 01:10:58,320
he said yeah

1686
01:11:02,709 --> 01:11:00,320
and he said he saw little geometric

1687
01:11:05,510 --> 01:11:02,719
forms swirling around

1688
01:11:05,830 --> 01:11:05,520
uh some were octagonal some were kind of

1689
01:11:08,950 --> 01:11:05,840
like

1690
01:11:09,669 --> 01:11:08,960
uh pyramid shaped and squared and we all

1691
01:11:11,350 --> 01:11:09,679
saw we

1692
01:11:13,350 --> 01:11:11,360
he and i saw the same things they were

1693
01:11:14,870 --> 01:11:13,360
moving around like little fish swimming

1694
01:11:18,390 --> 01:11:14,880
in an ocean

1695
01:11:19,750 --> 01:11:18,400
and he then just grew tired of and went

1696
01:11:21,669 --> 01:11:19,760
to bed

1697
01:11:22,790 --> 01:11:21,679
uh but that was it that was how he

1698
01:11:26,070 --> 01:11:22,800
responded to it

1699
01:11:29,110 --> 01:11:26,080
and he was done with it um

1700
01:11:31,430 --> 01:11:29,120
i went to bed and as soon as i closed my

1701
01:11:33,830 --> 01:11:31,440
eyes i was sent down a tunnel that was

1702
01:11:35,910 --> 01:11:33,840
winding and then i saw something that

1703
01:11:37,750 --> 01:11:35,920
i'll never forget that i i really don't

1704
01:11:40,709 --> 01:11:37,760
want to describe but i can tell you i

1705
01:11:44,390 --> 01:11:40,719
was taken somewhere and i did see things

1706
01:11:46,070 --> 01:11:44,400
and what i wanted to kind of talk to you

1707
01:11:48,550 --> 01:11:46,080
about is

1708
01:11:50,470 --> 01:11:48,560
there's an element an element of the

1709
01:11:52,229 --> 01:11:50,480
phenomena

1710
01:11:54,070 --> 01:11:52,239
where people can be abducted through

1711
01:11:56,709 --> 01:11:54,080
their minds because i

1712
01:11:59,110 --> 01:11:56,719
didn't give my permission to go anywhere

1713
01:12:02,149 --> 01:11:59,120
yet i was taken somewhere that night

1714
01:12:06,229 --> 01:12:02,159
and i saw that grid for 10

1715
01:12:07,030 --> 01:12:06,239
years wow for 10 years i saw that stupid

1716
01:12:08,870 --> 01:12:07,040
grid

1717
01:12:10,229 --> 01:12:08,880
and there's a there's a form of

1718
01:12:13,270 --> 01:12:10,239
technology

1719
01:12:15,030 --> 01:12:13,280
that it had and uh it would take me a

1720
01:12:15,910 --> 01:12:15,040
really long time to explain it which i'm

1721
01:12:19,350 --> 01:12:15,920
not going to

1722
01:12:20,550 --> 01:12:19,360
not on the show but i couldn't do

1723
01:12:23,030 --> 01:12:20,560
anything with it

1724
01:12:23,669 --> 01:12:23,040
nothing meaningful to me in my life that

1725
01:12:28,709 --> 01:12:23,679
is

1726
01:12:32,550 --> 01:12:28,719
nothing i could do with it

1727
01:12:34,950 --> 01:12:32,560
now uh did i do stuff with it yes i did

1728
01:12:36,790 --> 01:12:34,960
but still i got to the point where you

1729
01:12:37,590 --> 01:12:36,800
know you wake up in the morning you see

1730
01:12:41,590 --> 01:12:37,600
it

1731
01:12:43,990 --> 01:12:41,600
the day because you know you're working

1732
01:12:46,070 --> 01:12:44,000
and you see stuff you see people walk by

1733
01:12:48,870 --> 01:12:46,080
okay stuff breaks right through it

1734
01:12:49,750 --> 01:12:48,880
it wears away but at night boom it comes

1735
01:12:53,430 --> 01:12:49,760
right back

1736
01:12:55,830 --> 01:12:53,440
and i finally had to beg it please

1737
01:12:57,110 --> 01:12:55,840
just go away i don't want to see you

1738
01:12:58,470 --> 01:12:57,120
anymore

1739
01:13:00,310 --> 01:12:58,480
i don't know if it was a form of

1740
01:13:02,630 --> 01:13:00,320
artificial intelligence

1741
01:13:04,070 --> 01:13:02,640
that was just that or artificial

1742
01:13:07,189 --> 01:13:04,080
intelligence related to

1743
01:13:11,350 --> 01:13:07,199
ets but it was something that had

1744
01:13:15,030 --> 01:13:11,360
a ability to move on its own

1745
01:13:15,590 --> 01:13:15,040
in its own fashion so anyway i know what

1746
01:13:17,510 --> 01:13:15,600
it's like

1747
01:13:18,950 --> 01:13:17,520
to be abducted in the sense of through

1748
01:13:22,070 --> 01:13:18,960
the mind without

1749
01:13:24,630 --> 01:13:22,080
giving permission i can tell my

1750
01:13:26,550 --> 01:13:24,640
listeners and you this

1751
01:13:29,110 --> 01:13:26,560
there's something very very strange

1752
01:13:33,030 --> 01:13:29,120
about realizing that you don't have

1753
01:13:36,470 --> 01:13:33,040
the right to to be who you are

1754
01:13:38,550 --> 01:13:36,480
and be autonomous because

1755
01:13:39,830 --> 01:13:38,560
people take that for granted and

1756
01:13:42,550 --> 01:13:39,840
rightfully so

1757
01:13:44,310 --> 01:13:42,560
but when it happens to you in that kind

1758
01:13:45,830 --> 01:13:44,320
of psychological fashion

1759
01:13:47,270 --> 01:13:45,840
and your rights are being taken away and

1760
01:13:49,990 --> 01:13:47,280
you're being forced to look at things

1761
01:13:53,189 --> 01:13:50,000
that you didn't give permission

1762
01:13:56,630 --> 01:13:53,199
to look at it's a very an

1763
01:13:59,590 --> 01:13:56,640
unnerving experience um and

1764
01:14:01,350 --> 01:13:59,600
um it's never gone away and i think in

1765
01:14:03,750 --> 01:14:01,360
part that's probably why i do

1766
01:14:05,750 --> 01:14:03,760
these interviews so i'm really glad i

1767
01:14:08,390 --> 01:14:05,760
was able to share that with you

1768
01:14:09,270 --> 01:14:08,400
well thank you for sharing that did you

1769
01:14:11,189 --> 01:14:09,280
see this

1770
01:14:13,590 --> 01:14:11,199
only when you closed your eyes or when

1771
01:14:15,270 --> 01:14:13,600
your eyes were wide open too whether my

1772
01:14:18,870 --> 01:14:15,280
eyes were open or closed

1773
01:14:20,550 --> 01:14:18,880
is that so yeah and i noticed that if i

1774
01:14:22,870 --> 01:14:20,560
was over water

1775
01:14:23,830 --> 01:14:22,880
i could actually see things in color

1776
01:14:27,350 --> 01:14:23,840
like other

1777
01:14:29,110 --> 01:14:27,360
other locations and places i had never

1778
01:14:32,870 --> 01:14:29,120
been to

1779
01:14:35,990 --> 01:14:32,880
which was very strange and

1780
01:14:39,750 --> 01:14:36,000
so the grid was in an x-ray

1781
01:14:41,110 --> 01:14:39,760
white color but then after a while i

1782
01:14:43,830 --> 01:14:41,120
started seeing

1783
01:14:45,669 --> 01:14:43,840
in the very beginning pinpoints of

1784
01:14:48,229 --> 01:14:45,679
millions of different colors

1785
01:14:49,990 --> 01:14:48,239
they were probably primary colors but

1786
01:14:51,510 --> 01:14:50,000
but they were all mixed together and

1787
01:14:54,310 --> 01:14:51,520
then those pins

1788
01:14:55,189 --> 01:14:54,320
of colors became those dots became lines

1789
01:14:58,390 --> 01:14:55,199
that would embed

1790
01:14:59,030 --> 01:14:58,400
themselves and move with the other x-ray

1791
01:15:02,470 --> 01:14:59,040
lines

1792
01:15:05,350 --> 01:15:02,480
just in tandem

1793
01:15:06,149 --> 01:15:05,360
turned all different colors and that

1794
01:15:09,510 --> 01:15:06,159
would

1795
01:15:12,709 --> 01:15:09,520
change

1796
01:15:14,310 --> 01:15:12,719
randomly from x-ray colors to the

1797
01:15:17,350 --> 01:15:14,320
vibrant different

1798
01:15:19,669 --> 01:15:17,360
purple blue red green yellow all the

1799
01:15:22,550 --> 01:15:19,679
different colors you could imagine

1800
01:15:24,149 --> 01:15:22,560
and i would see geometric forms and some

1801
01:15:26,229 --> 01:15:24,159
actually had a life of their own like

1802
01:15:30,790 --> 01:15:26,239
they actually had a consciousness

1803
01:15:34,709 --> 01:15:30,800
and they would um communicate with me

1804
01:15:38,790 --> 01:15:34,719
and some had tasks tasks to do

1805
01:15:41,270 --> 01:15:38,800
and they didn't seem very um

1806
01:15:41,910 --> 01:15:41,280
very excitable they were just used to

1807
01:15:45,910 --> 01:15:41,920
doing their

1808
01:15:46,310 --> 01:15:45,920
their tasks and there was no one to talk

1809
01:15:50,229 --> 01:15:46,320
to

1810
01:15:52,950 --> 01:15:50,239
weren't scientists either

1811
01:15:54,630 --> 01:15:52,960
you know i had friends that were blue

1812
01:15:56,310 --> 01:15:54,640
collar and white collar workers and

1813
01:15:57,750 --> 01:15:56,320
everything in between and

1814
01:15:59,270 --> 01:15:57,760
you know when you talk to people about

1815
01:16:00,310 --> 01:15:59,280
this i know you know this better than

1816
01:16:02,709 --> 01:16:00,320
anybody

1817
01:16:04,470 --> 01:16:02,719
and so does frank but um there's really

1818
01:16:07,189 --> 01:16:04,480
nothing they can do for you

1819
01:16:07,750 --> 01:16:07,199
um now i did uh talk to that friend of

1820
01:16:10,470 --> 01:16:07,760
mine

1821
01:16:11,270 --> 01:16:10,480
last year and he allowed me to record

1822
01:16:15,189 --> 01:16:11,280
him

1823
01:16:17,270 --> 01:16:15,199
uh talking about how he saw that grid

1824
01:16:18,790 --> 01:16:17,280
and so really what i've come to the

1825
01:16:20,790 --> 01:16:18,800
conclusion is is

1826
01:16:21,910 --> 01:16:20,800
i'm not sure what that thing was but it

1827
01:16:23,910 --> 01:16:21,920
followed me home

1828
01:16:26,870 --> 01:16:23,920
and it decided to stay with me for a

1829
01:16:29,430 --> 01:16:26,880
while or i attached to it somehow

1830
01:16:31,750 --> 01:16:29,440
now regarding the people on the grass

1831
01:16:34,709 --> 01:16:31,760
that friend of mine who witnessed that

1832
01:16:36,310 --> 01:16:34,719
ex x-ray looking circle in the sky with

1833
01:16:38,310 --> 01:16:36,320
the line that was moving through it and

1834
01:16:41,750 --> 01:16:38,320
one staying stationary

1835
01:16:43,750 --> 01:16:41,760
um we we figured something out that was

1836
01:16:44,790 --> 01:16:43,760
quite strange and that was the cloned

1837
01:16:46,709 --> 01:16:44,800
people

1838
01:16:48,550 --> 01:16:46,719
i say clowned because they we realized

1839
01:16:50,310 --> 01:16:48,560
later it was the same couple

1840
01:16:51,590 --> 01:16:50,320
that was laying one way and then laying

1841
01:16:53,430 --> 01:16:51,600
another

1842
01:16:55,110 --> 01:16:53,440
zigzagging through the grass on the

1843
01:16:57,830 --> 01:16:55,120
ground they were

1844
01:16:59,910 --> 01:16:57,840
same couple over and over again we went

1845
01:17:02,950 --> 01:16:59,920
back to that hotel

1846
01:17:05,990 --> 01:17:02,960
up in the same exact spot we had been in

1847
01:17:07,270 --> 01:17:06,000
we looked down and the grass was a tiny

1848
01:17:09,030 --> 01:17:07,280
little spot

1849
01:17:10,310 --> 01:17:09,040
it wasn't even capable of holding but

1850
01:17:13,430 --> 01:17:10,320
maybe one couple

1851
01:17:15,510 --> 01:17:13,440
yet we saw a dozen or so and that

1852
01:17:16,630 --> 01:17:15,520
strip of grass had shrunk to a tiny

1853
01:17:18,149 --> 01:17:16,640
little area

1854
01:17:20,149 --> 01:17:18,159
and it would have been an impossibility

1855
01:17:21,830 --> 01:17:20,159
to have seen on the ground what we did

1856
01:17:23,350 --> 01:17:21,840
to this day we still don't even know

1857
01:17:25,030 --> 01:17:23,360
what it was that we saw there on the

1858
01:17:29,110 --> 01:17:25,040
ground nor up in the sky

1859
01:17:31,750 --> 01:17:29,120
now i did ask him i said to him i said i

1860
01:17:32,870 --> 01:17:31,760
i know you saw something what did you

1861
01:17:36,229 --> 01:17:32,880
see

1862
01:17:40,470 --> 01:17:36,239
and he told me very reluctantly

1863
01:17:42,709 --> 01:17:40,480
um he saw

1864
01:17:43,990 --> 01:17:42,719
license plates that were backwards for

1865
01:17:47,110 --> 01:17:44,000
about a week

1866
01:17:48,870 --> 01:17:47,120
and i've come to a conclusion i'm sorry

1867
01:17:51,430 --> 01:17:48,880
a conclusion and a theory regarding what

1868
01:17:51,910 --> 01:17:51,440
it could have been now the x-ray lights

1869
01:17:55,350 --> 01:17:51,920
that i

1870
01:17:57,669 --> 01:17:55,360
saw were the exact luminescent white

1871
01:17:58,870 --> 01:17:57,679
of a license plate that glows in the

1872
01:18:01,270 --> 01:17:58,880
dark

1873
01:18:02,550 --> 01:18:01,280
so my understanding about eyes and i

1874
01:18:04,229 --> 01:18:02,560
don't mind being wrong perhaps a

1875
01:18:05,990 --> 01:18:04,239
listener can correct me or not

1876
01:18:06,210 --> 01:18:06,000
is when people look at things they see

1877
01:18:07,430 --> 01:18:06,220
them

1878
01:18:10,390 --> 01:18:07,440
[Music]

1879
01:18:12,229 --> 01:18:10,400
reverse or upside down and then the the

1880
01:18:12,709 --> 01:18:12,239
optics of the eye or the mind turns it

1881
01:18:15,110 --> 01:18:12,719
back

1882
01:18:15,990 --> 01:18:15,120
another way so we end up seeing it the

1883
01:18:19,830 --> 01:18:16,000
correct

1884
01:18:21,910 --> 01:18:19,840
way up now i think what happened was is

1885
01:18:23,510 --> 01:18:21,920
that luminescent light on the license

1886
01:18:25,430 --> 01:18:23,520
plate tripped up his eyes

1887
01:18:28,390 --> 01:18:25,440
and it didn't allow his eyes to turn it

1888
01:18:31,590 --> 01:18:28,400
the right way it should have been

1889
01:18:34,070 --> 01:18:31,600
and it just kept it backwards

1890
01:18:35,910 --> 01:18:34,080
and um i said i know you saw more than

1891
01:18:37,510 --> 01:18:35,920
that what else did you see

1892
01:18:39,110 --> 01:18:37,520
and he put his head down like he was a

1893
01:18:40,550 --> 01:18:39,120
little boy in trouble like he was going

1894
01:18:42,390 --> 01:18:40,560
to the principal's office

1895
01:18:44,550 --> 01:18:42,400
and he was one of my best friends i knew

1896
01:18:45,590 --> 01:18:44,560
him very well and he refused to talk

1897
01:18:48,950 --> 01:18:45,600
about it

1898
01:18:50,790 --> 01:18:48,960
wow so i just thought that was kind of

1899
01:18:52,709 --> 01:18:50,800
interesting this phenomena

1900
01:18:54,229 --> 01:18:52,719
when a person is exposed to it and it

1901
01:18:56,229 --> 01:18:54,239
can come in any way

1902
01:18:57,990 --> 01:18:56,239
in many different shapes and forms i

1903
01:18:59,830 --> 01:18:58,000
know you've heard about

1904
01:19:01,350 --> 01:18:59,840
many more than we have frank and i

1905
01:19:03,350 --> 01:19:01,360
because of your experiences

1906
01:19:04,630 --> 01:19:03,360
of listening to people over many many

1907
01:19:07,430 --> 01:19:04,640
decades

1908
01:19:07,990 --> 01:19:07,440
thousands of people it it comes in so

1909
01:19:10,229 --> 01:19:08,000
many different

1910
01:19:11,590 --> 01:19:10,239
shapes and forms it might even come in

1911
01:19:14,149 --> 01:19:11,600
forms that we are not

1912
01:19:15,510 --> 01:19:14,159
privy to in a conscious manner but an

1913
01:19:17,430 --> 01:19:15,520
unconscious manner

1914
01:19:18,630 --> 01:19:17,440
so we might actually be dealing with

1915
01:19:22,070 --> 01:19:18,640
witnessing

1916
01:19:25,830 --> 01:19:22,080
um this phenomena more than we realize

1917
01:19:29,750 --> 01:19:25,840
in mass yes

1918
01:19:33,030 --> 01:19:29,760
and you know you are the first person

1919
01:19:36,470 --> 01:19:33,040
that i have spoken with that has had

1920
01:19:39,750 --> 01:19:36,480
the kind of experience that you had i

1921
01:19:40,149 --> 01:19:39,760
i have spoken with several people who

1922
01:19:42,950 --> 01:19:40,159
were

1923
01:19:44,390 --> 01:19:42,960
in their 50s when they had their first

1924
01:19:47,750 --> 01:19:44,400
experience

1925
01:19:50,709 --> 01:19:47,760
and whatever this was attached

1926
01:19:51,669 --> 01:19:50,719
to their minds so that every time they

1927
01:19:54,550 --> 01:19:51,679
closed their

1928
01:19:56,870 --> 01:19:54,560
eyes they were someplace else they were

1929
01:19:59,350 --> 01:19:56,880
in a tunnel

1930
01:20:00,470 --> 01:19:59,360
under the ground and things were

1931
01:20:04,149 --> 01:20:00,480
happening that were

1932
01:20:07,830 --> 01:20:04,159
not very good they were horrific in fact

1933
01:20:08,550 --> 01:20:07,840
but i have never spoken with anyone who

1934
01:20:12,870 --> 01:20:08,560
had the

1935
01:20:15,189 --> 01:20:12,880
grid uh kind of experience that you had

1936
01:20:15,990 --> 01:20:15,199
a member of mufon's experience or

1937
01:20:19,910 --> 01:20:16,000
research

1938
01:20:23,669 --> 01:20:19,920
team uh who i was

1939
01:20:26,950 --> 01:20:23,679
their director for 10 years and

1940
01:20:29,750 --> 01:20:26,960
actually had set the team up due to

1941
01:20:30,229 --> 01:20:29,760
time constraints stepped down recently

1942
01:20:33,350 --> 01:20:30,239
but

1943
01:20:34,550 --> 01:20:33,360
one of our members wanted to have an

1944
01:20:37,990 --> 01:20:34,560
experience

1945
01:20:40,709 --> 01:20:38,000
and kept asking for it and he had

1946
01:20:42,070 --> 01:20:40,719
something very strange that happened

1947
01:20:44,790 --> 01:20:42,080
where he was

1948
01:20:45,189 --> 01:20:44,800
in his bedroom at night with his wife

1949
01:20:48,629 --> 01:20:45,199
both

1950
01:20:52,629 --> 01:20:48,639
saw this but it was as if the wall

1951
01:20:56,229 --> 01:20:52,639
opened up and a bright light

1952
01:20:59,910 --> 01:20:56,239
came through and then they could

1953
01:21:00,950 --> 01:20:59,920
see what appeared to be a room next to

1954
01:21:03,430 --> 01:21:00,960
their room

1955
01:21:05,510 --> 01:21:03,440
but there wasn't room for a room to be

1956
01:21:08,629 --> 01:21:05,520
there because the next house

1957
01:21:11,189 --> 01:21:08,639
was only the width of an alley away

1958
01:21:12,310 --> 01:21:11,199
but it seemed like a large room and

1959
01:21:16,070 --> 01:21:12,320
these non-human

1960
01:21:19,110 --> 01:21:16,080
entities came and stepped out of their

1961
01:21:22,790 --> 01:21:19,120
environment and in to his and

1962
01:21:23,830 --> 01:21:22,800
her environment and and proceeded to do

1963
01:21:28,629 --> 01:21:23,840
tests

1964
01:21:31,910 --> 01:21:28,639
on him to to remove fluids from his body

1965
01:21:35,030 --> 01:21:31,920
and very very strange so

1966
01:21:39,030 --> 01:21:35,040
uh you know it just seems that

1967
01:21:39,910 --> 01:21:39,040
things are there is definitely more than

1968
01:21:43,270 --> 01:21:39,920
one thing

1969
01:21:46,550 --> 01:21:43,280
occurring and we're beginning to wonder

1970
01:21:49,830 --> 01:21:46,560
if the typical

1971
01:21:51,910 --> 01:21:49,840
ufo abduction events that we have become

1972
01:21:55,350 --> 01:21:51,920
familiar with such as

1973
01:21:58,629 --> 01:21:55,360
having sperm and overtaken on craft

1974
01:22:01,669 --> 01:21:58,639
that sort of thing um is coming to an

1975
01:22:03,350 --> 01:22:01,679
end uh members of our team

1976
01:22:04,709 --> 01:22:03,360
have been talking about that there are

1977
01:22:07,910 --> 01:22:04,719
45

1978
01:22:11,350 --> 01:22:07,920
members of the team and most

1979
01:22:14,470 --> 01:22:11,360
say that they really haven't received

1980
01:22:15,030 --> 01:22:14,480
recent reports of people being treated

1981
01:22:17,590 --> 01:22:15,040
in

1982
01:22:18,950 --> 01:22:17,600
the manner that they used to be such as

1983
01:22:22,149 --> 01:22:18,960
the way betty and barney

1984
01:22:26,149 --> 01:22:22,159
hill were um so

1985
01:22:28,070 --> 01:22:26,159
this is something interesting to look at

1986
01:22:29,270 --> 01:22:28,080
it appears that they're beginning a new

1987
01:22:32,790 --> 01:22:29,280
program

1988
01:22:36,229 --> 01:22:32,800
and what is exactly is going on

1989
01:22:38,149 --> 01:22:36,239
ray hernandez who started the edgar

1990
01:22:40,790 --> 01:22:38,159
mitchell free foundation

1991
01:22:42,310 --> 01:22:40,800
and i was on the board of directors of

1992
01:22:45,510 --> 01:22:42,320
that foundation

1993
01:22:48,790 --> 01:22:45,520
had he called it a matrix kind of

1994
01:22:50,149 --> 01:22:48,800
reality that he ended up in i don't know

1995
01:22:53,669 --> 01:22:50,159
if this is similar to

1996
01:22:54,390 --> 01:22:53,679
what you had but it didn't remain with

1997
01:22:56,950 --> 01:22:54,400
him

1998
01:22:58,709 --> 01:22:56,960
the way it did with you yeah but he

1999
01:23:00,550 --> 01:22:58,719
continued to have extraordinary

2000
01:23:03,030 --> 01:23:00,560
experiences

2001
01:23:03,750 --> 01:23:03,040
i think the only thing that i will

2002
01:23:05,750 --> 01:23:03,760
mention

2003
01:23:07,189 --> 01:23:05,760
about having gone down a tunnel when i

2004
01:23:09,910 --> 01:23:07,199
closed my eyes

2005
01:23:12,870 --> 01:23:09,920
and i did want to mention when i went to

2006
01:23:15,510 --> 01:23:12,880
bed and i closed my eyes that night

2007
01:23:16,470 --> 01:23:15,520
i kept trying to shake off the grid

2008
01:23:18,790 --> 01:23:16,480
naturally

2009
01:23:20,709 --> 01:23:18,800
because i it wasn't it wasn't natural to

2010
01:23:21,590 --> 01:23:20,719
me nor did i feel it practical or

2011
01:23:24,470 --> 01:23:21,600
necessary

2012
01:23:25,750 --> 01:23:24,480
to have it attached to me so i kept

2013
01:23:27,990 --> 01:23:25,760
trying to sort of

2014
01:23:29,430 --> 01:23:28,000
tell it you know and myself okay that's

2015
01:23:30,149 --> 01:23:29,440
enough i don't i don't need to see this

2016
01:23:31,990 --> 01:23:30,159
anymore it's

2017
01:23:33,270 --> 01:23:32,000
it's it's irrelevant and that's an

2018
01:23:35,030 --> 01:23:33,280
unnecessary to me

2019
01:23:37,510 --> 01:23:35,040
also i need to go to bed and i want to

2020
01:23:38,149 --> 01:23:37,520
go to sleep and i closed my eyes and i

2021
01:23:40,709 --> 01:23:38,159
kept

2022
01:23:43,270 --> 01:23:40,719
getting rushed it was literally going

2023
01:23:47,270 --> 01:23:43,280
down i was going down very fast

2024
01:23:50,229 --> 01:23:47,280
and down a tunnel that winded around

2025
01:23:51,510 --> 01:23:50,239
in a huge curve and i as i went down

2026
01:23:55,430 --> 01:23:51,520
this very grid

2027
01:23:58,310 --> 01:23:55,440
matrix like a tunnel

2028
01:23:59,030 --> 01:23:58,320
that i could that i couldn't get away

2029
01:24:00,550 --> 01:23:59,040
from

2030
01:24:02,070 --> 01:24:00,560
and by the way i only saw this tunnel

2031
01:24:04,470 --> 01:24:02,080
when i closed my eyes but when i opened

2032
01:24:06,310 --> 01:24:04,480
my eyes i saw the grid around me

2033
01:24:09,990 --> 01:24:06,320
when i went down this tunnel at the end

2034
01:24:12,790 --> 01:24:10,000
of it there was a geometric figure there

2035
01:24:14,390 --> 01:24:12,800
that looked at me even though it didn't

2036
01:24:16,390 --> 01:24:14,400
have any eyes

2037
01:24:17,990 --> 01:24:16,400
and we were we were right in front of

2038
01:24:19,910 --> 01:24:18,000
each other

2039
01:24:21,830 --> 01:24:19,920
um i was sort of vertical to it and

2040
01:24:23,669 --> 01:24:21,840
there was a hole next to him

2041
01:24:24,870 --> 01:24:23,679
i say him just for the sake of saying

2042
01:24:26,950 --> 01:24:24,880
that

2043
01:24:29,030 --> 01:24:26,960
but there was a hole next to him or it

2044
01:24:32,629 --> 01:24:29,040
or her whatever it was

2045
01:24:34,229 --> 01:24:32,639
and it nodded its triangular geometric

2046
01:24:36,390 --> 01:24:34,239
head at me

2047
01:24:38,709 --> 01:24:36,400
and i went through the hole as if he

2048
01:24:41,030 --> 01:24:38,719
gave me the approval to go in

2049
01:24:43,110 --> 01:24:41,040
without i didn't give myself approval

2050
01:24:44,709 --> 01:24:43,120
and as i went through the hole i said to

2051
01:24:48,149 --> 01:24:44,719
myself

2052
01:24:50,629 --> 01:24:48,159
if if i can see that thing what do

2053
01:24:52,149 --> 01:24:50,639
what do i look like to it because i'm

2054
01:24:55,590 --> 01:24:52,159
not physically walking there

2055
01:24:57,990 --> 01:24:55,600
or running or being driven down or flown

2056
01:25:00,149 --> 01:24:58,000
i'm going through my mind so what do i

2057
01:25:03,189 --> 01:25:00,159
look like to it

2058
01:25:04,229 --> 01:25:03,199
and as i went over uh i'm sorry through

2059
01:25:07,350 --> 01:25:04,239
the hole

2060
01:25:10,070 --> 01:25:07,360
i saw something that

2061
01:25:12,229 --> 01:25:10,080
it would i can't even i i will not tell

2062
01:25:15,830 --> 01:25:12,239
the story here i can tell you later

2063
01:25:19,510 --> 01:25:15,840
but it was absolutely unnatural

2064
01:25:23,990 --> 01:25:19,520
and it was out of this world it was

2065
01:25:28,709 --> 01:25:26,870
but um anyway i'm glad i was able to

2066
01:25:31,030 --> 01:25:28,719
talk to you about that thank you

2067
01:25:32,870 --> 01:25:31,040
yes and we'll have to talk later yeah

2068
01:25:35,270 --> 01:25:32,880
we'll have to talk later

2069
01:25:37,189 --> 01:25:35,280
but uh i did want to mention that you

2070
01:25:38,629 --> 01:25:37,199
know naturally i think humans want to

2071
01:25:40,470 --> 01:25:38,639
get to the bottom of anything that

2072
01:25:43,110 --> 01:25:40,480
appears to be a mysterious

2073
01:25:44,070 --> 01:25:43,120
or compelling to them however there are

2074
01:25:46,149 --> 01:25:44,080
times when people

2075
01:25:47,189 --> 01:25:46,159
can become so traumatized or so

2076
01:25:48,950 --> 01:25:47,199
overwhelmed

2077
01:25:50,629 --> 01:25:48,960
they don't want to get to the bottom of

2078
01:25:53,189 --> 01:25:50,639
something

2079
01:25:55,030 --> 01:25:53,199
however you have persevered all these

2080
01:25:57,110 --> 01:25:55,040
years and you feel like

2081
01:25:58,790 --> 01:25:57,120
you want to find out more about this

2082
01:26:00,390 --> 01:25:58,800
topic do you feel it's true that you

2083
01:26:02,070 --> 01:26:00,400
can't really get to the bottom of this

2084
01:26:03,669 --> 01:26:02,080
kind of rabbit hole

2085
01:26:05,590 --> 01:26:03,679
metaphorically speaking meaning the

2086
01:26:07,350 --> 01:26:05,600
phenomena will we ever find all the

2087
01:26:08,870 --> 01:26:07,360
answers to it what are your thoughts on

2088
01:26:11,830 --> 01:26:08,880
that

2089
01:26:13,750 --> 01:26:11,840
i don't think we'll find the answers

2090
01:26:16,149 --> 01:26:13,760
within my lifetime

2091
01:26:17,910 --> 01:26:16,159
i think that we have to develop a new

2092
01:26:21,430 --> 01:26:17,920
scientific paradigm

2093
01:26:24,149 --> 01:26:21,440
to even begin uh and and

2094
01:26:25,030 --> 01:26:24,159
we're quite a distance away from that i

2095
01:26:29,270 --> 01:26:25,040
think

2096
01:26:32,030 --> 01:26:29,280
and the the concern that i have

2097
01:26:34,149 --> 01:26:32,040
is that these entities are so

2098
01:26:37,350 --> 01:26:34,159
technologically advanced

2099
01:26:40,790 --> 01:26:37,360
and so different from us

2100
01:26:44,070 --> 01:26:40,800
that i would not want open contact

2101
01:26:44,790 --> 01:26:44,080
with them i think that it would be not a

2102
01:26:48,470 --> 01:26:44,800
good thing

2103
01:26:52,070 --> 01:26:48,480
for our society i don't mind

2104
01:26:55,110 --> 01:26:52,080
soft disclosure as long as the public

2105
01:26:56,310 --> 01:26:55,120
i can tolerate that with without public

2106
01:26:59,750 --> 01:26:56,320
hysteria

2107
01:27:02,229 --> 01:26:59,760
but i'm i'm very concerned because

2108
01:27:02,870 --> 01:27:02,239
these whatever these entities are

2109
01:27:07,590 --> 01:27:02,880
they're

2110
01:27:10,709 --> 01:27:07,600
different communicate differently

2111
01:27:14,390 --> 01:27:10,719
their technology is so highly advanced

2112
01:27:16,310 --> 01:27:14,400
that we can't understand it

2113
01:27:18,470 --> 01:27:16,320
yeah well before we end the interview i

2114
01:27:19,990 --> 01:27:18,480
wanted to remind our listeners of

2115
01:27:22,229 --> 01:27:20,000
something you see often on the show and

2116
01:27:24,550 --> 01:27:22,239
that is it is the us government's

2117
01:27:25,669 --> 01:27:24,560
and uh first to third world governments

2118
01:27:28,470 --> 01:27:25,679
on this planet's

2119
01:27:30,709 --> 01:27:28,480
priority to absolutely find out what is

2120
01:27:32,470 --> 01:27:30,719
traversing our skies or under our oceans

2121
01:27:35,270 --> 01:27:32,480
or even on the ground

2122
01:27:36,790 --> 01:27:35,280
and anyone who thinks otherwise is

2123
01:27:39,110 --> 01:27:36,800
absolutely naive

2124
01:27:40,550 --> 01:27:39,120
i wanted to let everybody know that if

2125
01:27:42,709 --> 01:27:40,560
anybody wants to get any autographed

2126
01:27:44,830 --> 01:27:42,719
copies of kathleen's books

2127
01:27:46,790 --> 01:27:44,840
they're available on our website at

2128
01:27:50,550 --> 01:27:46,800
kathleen

2129
01:27:52,070 --> 01:27:50,560
and that's amazonmomarden.com

2130
01:27:53,669 --> 01:27:52,080
and i'm not going to let you go yet i

2131
01:27:54,550 --> 01:27:53,679
still just i just wanted to mention your

2132
01:27:56,870 --> 01:27:54,560
books

2133
01:27:57,830 --> 01:27:56,880
but uh there's the extraterrestrial

2134
01:28:01,030 --> 01:27:57,840
contact

2135
01:28:03,430 --> 01:28:01,040
the alien abduction files the new

2136
01:28:06,550 --> 01:28:03,440
60th anniversary addiction have captured

2137
01:28:09,590 --> 01:28:06,560
the betty and barney hill ufo experience

2138
01:28:13,270 --> 01:28:09,600
fact fiction and flying saucers and

2139
01:28:14,550 --> 01:28:13,280
science was wrong and flying saucers in

2140
01:28:18,070 --> 01:28:14,560
science

2141
01:28:21,510 --> 01:28:18,080
you have consumed your life

2142
01:28:25,030 --> 01:28:21,520
kathleen to the betterment of humanity

2143
01:28:25,910 --> 01:28:25,040
with really trying to jump in with all

2144
01:28:28,070 --> 01:28:25,920
of your being

2145
01:28:30,390 --> 01:28:28,080
into this topic do you feel you're a

2146
01:28:33,590 --> 01:28:30,400
better person for it

2147
01:28:35,510 --> 01:28:33,600
yes i do think i'm a better person for

2148
01:28:39,830 --> 01:28:35,520
it because

2149
01:28:43,350 --> 01:28:39,840
not only has it been a fascinating study

2150
01:28:46,310 --> 01:28:43,360
but i'm able to elucidate

2151
01:28:47,030 --> 01:28:46,320
the topic as much as i can and a little

2152
01:28:50,070 --> 01:28:47,040
bit

2153
01:28:50,790 --> 01:28:50,080
and and to help other people who are

2154
01:28:53,669 --> 01:28:50,800
having these

2155
01:28:54,390 --> 01:28:53,679
experiences it hasn't been service to

2156
01:28:57,110 --> 01:28:54,400
self

2157
01:28:58,629 --> 01:28:57,120
it's been service to others uh during

2158
01:29:02,709 --> 01:28:58,639
the entire time

2159
01:29:05,590 --> 01:29:02,719
and i was a teacher and i continue

2160
01:29:06,550 --> 01:29:05,600
to teach and to explore and to

2161
01:29:10,870 --> 01:29:06,560
experiment

2162
01:29:13,830 --> 01:29:10,880
and uh to attempt to find the answers

2163
01:29:15,350 --> 01:29:13,840
and oftentimes i speak with theoretical

2164
01:29:17,189 --> 01:29:15,360
physicists

2165
01:29:19,030 --> 01:29:17,199
who are involved in this kind of

2166
01:29:22,790 --> 01:29:19,040
research as well

2167
01:29:25,910 --> 01:29:22,800
to gain a understanding

2168
01:29:29,350 --> 01:29:25,920
using our own physical laws but also

2169
01:29:32,950 --> 01:29:29,360
theoretical physics so uh yeah it's

2170
01:29:35,750 --> 01:29:32,960
it's been very rewarding intrinsically

2171
01:29:37,669 --> 01:29:35,760
before we go is going to ask you uh what

2172
01:29:39,270 --> 01:29:37,679
do you think is the end game

2173
01:29:41,669 --> 01:29:39,280
before you answer that i wanted to

2174
01:29:43,510 --> 01:29:41,679
mention i think part of the reason why

2175
01:29:45,110 --> 01:29:43,520
we're having experiences with this kind

2176
01:29:48,070 --> 01:29:45,120
of phenomena whether it be

2177
01:29:49,830 --> 01:29:48,080
multiple et civilizations or one or even

2178
01:29:52,870 --> 01:29:49,840
just their artificial intelligence that

2179
01:29:54,870 --> 01:29:52,880
might be floating around the planet

2180
01:29:56,550 --> 01:29:54,880
it might be an impossibility for us to

2181
01:29:58,310 --> 01:29:56,560
not have experiences with them because

2182
01:29:58,709 --> 01:29:58,320
we might be sharing the same planet with

2183
01:30:01,510 --> 01:29:58,719
them

2184
01:30:01,910 --> 01:30:01,520
but what do you think the end game is

2185
01:30:05,990 --> 01:30:01,920
for

2186
01:30:07,990 --> 01:30:06,000
ets who are intermingling with humans or

2187
01:30:11,350 --> 01:30:08,000
abducting them or studying them what is

2188
01:30:16,870 --> 01:30:14,550
i don't know what the end game is i've

2189
01:30:20,950 --> 01:30:16,880
worked on three major studies

2190
01:30:24,629 --> 01:30:20,960
with experiencers with results from

2191
01:30:27,669 --> 01:30:24,639
over 5 000 at this point and we

2192
01:30:31,030 --> 01:30:27,679
know what they have told us in

2193
01:30:34,550 --> 01:30:31,040
open-ended questions and

2194
01:30:36,229 --> 01:30:34,560
these entities claim that they are

2195
01:30:40,229 --> 01:30:36,239
concerned about our use of

2196
01:30:43,189 --> 01:30:40,239
nuclear weapons they

2197
01:30:45,830 --> 01:30:43,199
are concerned about our environment and

2198
01:30:49,110 --> 01:30:45,840
the possible environmental collapse

2199
01:30:53,430 --> 01:30:49,120
they uh explain that

2200
01:30:57,110 --> 01:30:53,440
they are collecting uh flora

2201
01:31:01,110 --> 01:30:57,120
and fauna from all over this world

2202
01:31:01,750 --> 01:31:01,120
uh that if we do end up destroying this

2203
01:31:03,830 --> 01:31:01,760
planet

2204
01:31:05,110 --> 01:31:03,840
that they will at least have all of that

2205
01:31:07,350 --> 01:31:05,120
dna

2206
01:31:09,669 --> 01:31:07,360
uh they are say that they're also

2207
01:31:14,390 --> 01:31:09,679
seeding other planets

2208
01:31:17,430 --> 01:31:14,400
uh that they are terraforming and

2209
01:31:20,229 --> 01:31:17,440
you know but who knows that's

2210
01:31:21,229 --> 01:31:20,239
i i have a tremendous amount of feedback

2211
01:31:24,550 --> 01:31:21,239
from

2212
01:31:28,310 --> 01:31:24,560
experiencers around the world

2213
01:31:31,030 --> 01:31:28,320
um many uh are having contact with

2214
01:31:32,950 --> 01:31:31,040
beings that they believe are benevolent

2215
01:31:36,149 --> 01:31:32,960
they believe that they have

2216
01:31:39,750 --> 01:31:36,159
volunteered to come to this

2217
01:31:43,430 --> 01:31:39,760
planet to work to save

2218
01:31:45,510 --> 01:31:43,440
this planet but there are

2219
01:31:47,189 --> 01:31:45,520
others who are having horrific

2220
01:31:49,750 --> 01:31:47,199
experiences as i

2221
01:31:50,790 --> 01:31:49,760
mentioned during our conversation as

2222
01:31:53,750 --> 01:31:50,800
well so

2223
01:31:55,030 --> 01:31:53,760
you know i've studied this in pretty

2224
01:31:58,149 --> 01:31:55,040
intensely for the past

2225
01:32:01,189 --> 01:31:58,159
30 years but i still don't

2226
01:32:02,070 --> 01:32:01,199
know the answer frank do you have any

2227
01:32:04,149 --> 01:32:02,080
questions

2228
01:32:05,990 --> 01:32:04,159
uh yeah i've got a couple follow-up

2229
01:32:06,310 --> 01:32:06,000
questions uh they should be pretty quick

2230
01:32:11,430 --> 01:32:06,320
uh

2231
01:32:14,470 --> 01:32:11,440
with stanton

2232
01:32:16,149 --> 01:32:14,480
and since his passing his archives

2233
01:32:18,950 --> 01:32:16,159
uh have become available have you gotten

2234
01:32:21,830 --> 01:32:18,960
a chance to go through that any

2235
01:32:23,110 --> 01:32:21,840
no i haven't i'd i'd have to go up to

2236
01:32:26,310 --> 01:32:23,120
new brunswick

2237
01:32:27,510 --> 01:32:26,320
to do that and it's going to take about

2238
01:32:29,990 --> 01:32:27,520
10 years

2239
01:32:30,870 --> 01:32:30,000
to complete stanton's archival

2240
01:32:33,590 --> 01:32:30,880
collection

2241
01:32:34,709 --> 01:32:33,600
he he has a huge the largest in the

2242
01:32:36,870 --> 01:32:34,719
world

2243
01:32:39,910 --> 01:32:36,880
archival collection i've seen photos of

2244
01:32:42,709 --> 01:32:39,920
it of the office

2245
01:32:43,669 --> 01:32:42,719
yes the photos of the office will show

2246
01:32:47,750 --> 01:32:43,679
you

2247
01:32:51,030 --> 01:32:47,760
um it was incredible but uh

2248
01:32:53,830 --> 01:32:51,040
he uh i'm not i don't have

2249
01:32:54,790 --> 01:32:53,840
plans to go up there right away i don't

2250
01:32:57,830 --> 01:32:54,800
know if i'll

2251
01:33:00,790 --> 01:32:57,840
you know when i will go up and

2252
01:33:02,629 --> 01:33:00,800
uh but i do have a lot of his files

2253
01:33:04,950 --> 01:33:02,639
because we shared files

2254
01:33:06,950 --> 01:33:04,960
so he was able to photocopy mine i was

2255
01:33:09,910 --> 01:33:06,960
able to photocopy his so

2256
01:33:12,390 --> 01:33:09,920
i already have a lot of his files so i'm

2257
01:33:15,830 --> 01:33:12,400
happy about that

2258
01:33:16,390 --> 01:33:15,840
and uh yeah a relative of yours a lady

2259
01:33:19,990 --> 01:33:16,400
named

2260
01:33:20,550 --> 01:33:20,000
angela hill she is a mixed martial

2261
01:33:23,669 --> 01:33:20,560
artist

2262
01:33:26,149 --> 01:33:23,679
and she is uh the the granddaughter of

2263
01:33:28,790 --> 01:33:26,159
betty and barney is that about right

2264
01:33:30,870 --> 01:33:28,800
yes i'm not sure if she had been born

2265
01:33:34,070 --> 01:33:30,880
before barney died

2266
01:33:37,430 --> 01:33:34,080
but she was uh at least barney's

2267
01:33:40,950 --> 01:33:37,440
granddaughter barney's son's uh

2268
01:33:42,709 --> 01:33:40,960
child okay that that's a a pretty tough

2269
01:33:46,390 --> 01:33:42,719
way to make a buck

2270
01:33:49,590 --> 01:33:49,110
i understand that she's very good yep

2271
01:33:52,470 --> 01:33:49,600
yep

2272
01:33:53,590 --> 01:33:52,480
okay so uh yeah that this was fantastic

2273
01:33:55,510 --> 01:33:53,600
i mean we uh covered

2274
01:33:57,590 --> 01:33:55,520
uh some pretty dense material there and

2275
01:33:59,590 --> 01:33:57,600
i think we did it in kind of a logical

2276
01:34:01,430 --> 01:33:59,600
progression so uh kathleen

2277
01:34:03,990 --> 01:34:01,440
i sure do appreciate you coming on with

2278
01:34:06,229 --> 01:34:04,000
us so this was this was great

2279
01:34:08,229 --> 01:34:06,239
well thank you i enjoyed it and thanks

2280
01:34:11,189 --> 01:34:08,239
for having me

2281
01:34:13,270 --> 01:34:11,199
and uh chat anything else yeah i just

2282
01:34:16,629 --> 01:34:13,280
want to remind our listeners to go to

2283
01:34:22,070 --> 01:34:16,639
kathleen martin.com that's

2284
01:34:23,990 --> 01:34:22,080
m a m-a-r-d-e-n-m-a-r-d-e-n.com

2285
01:34:25,750 --> 01:34:24,000
and uh don't forget to put the dash in

2286
01:34:28,950 --> 01:34:25,760
between kathleen

2287
01:34:31,189 --> 01:34:28,960
and martin and um you'll see

2288
01:34:32,390 --> 01:34:31,199
all kinds of information on her

2289
01:34:36,310 --> 01:34:32,400
including her blog

2290
01:34:39,430 --> 01:34:36,320
upcoming ufo conferences if any and

2291
01:34:42,149 --> 01:34:39,440
how much she's involved in experience

2292
01:34:44,870 --> 01:34:42,159
her advocacy because she is

2293
01:34:45,990 --> 01:34:44,880
probably the biggest advocate for

2294
01:34:49,350 --> 01:34:46,000
experiencers

2295
01:34:51,990 --> 01:34:49,360
that ufo the ufo community has today

2296
01:34:53,430 --> 01:34:52,000
the most well-known one and uh in

2297
01:34:55,109 --> 01:34:53,440
addition to that

2298
01:34:57,830 --> 01:34:55,119
the multitude of books that she's

2299
01:35:00,550 --> 01:34:57,840
written and co-written with the iconic

2300
01:35:01,430 --> 01:35:00,560
stan friedman whom we all miss quite

2301
01:35:03,189 --> 01:35:01,440
badly

2302
01:35:05,590 --> 01:35:03,199
and we want to thank you very much for

2303
01:35:07,350 --> 01:35:05,600
your discretionary time and we

2304
01:35:08,950 --> 01:35:07,360
appreciate you so much kathleen for all

2305
01:35:10,070 --> 01:35:08,960
the hard work you've done on all of our

2306
01:35:13,350 --> 01:35:10,080
behalf

2307
01:35:16,149 --> 01:35:13,360
thank you so much thanks again kathleen

2308
01:35:16,790 --> 01:35:16,159
and that's it for this week uh we might

2309
01:35:19,510 --> 01:35:16,800
be back

2310
01:35:19,830 --> 01:35:19,520
as early as next week a lot of news came

2311
01:35:22,709 --> 01:35:19,840
out

2312
01:35:24,470 --> 01:35:22,719
uh over the last week and there could be

2313
01:35:27,430 --> 01:35:24,480
some fallout from that so

2314
01:35:28,870 --> 01:35:27,440
we'll see if not next week then the week

2315
01:35:29,910 --> 01:35:28,880
after or the week after that but we'll

2316
01:35:31,990 --> 01:35:29,920
be back

2317
01:35:34,070 --> 01:35:32,000
soon enough with more so thanks for

2318
01:35:34,550 --> 01:35:34,080
joining us enjoy your weekend and have a